M5E1 build (or “How I Learned to Stop Expecting Things to Fit or Work Correctly and Accept the Insanity That is the AR308 Platform”

[Knuckledragger]

@KINGOFTHEPOORS I hated the gap between the upper and the handguard enough that I swapped out the M5 upper for an M5E1 upper. 
  I don’t know if it’s feasible to hone that much off the upper to make it fit flush. I can see where feed problems could possibly arise from an increased angle of attack as the barrel extension is pushed further inward. I can also see where it would be easy to take too much off and not be able to secure the handguard. 
  Assuming you don’t already have the lapping tool for the LR308, I think the better solution would be to use the money to get the M5E1 upper like I did, instead of buying the hone and potentially just creating bigger headaches for yourself. 
  As far as the barrel moving? Wow.... I cannot for the life of me see where that’s possible if it was properly installed and torqued. 
  FWIW, I’m no gunsmith, and there’s a lot of guys here with far more experience than me. They can speak to those issues better than I can. 

[Knuckledragger]

Update:

Got a few more pieces of the puzzle together tonight. So far, so good. No hitches in the action. Need to get to the range for some testing. The mount is just a placeholder til my LaRue order gets here. 
  Really liking the scope so far. Glass looks ridiculously clear. 
  Any recommendations on breaking it in and helping surfaces mate? 
  I’ve disassembled the BCG, cleaned it and lubed with CherryBalmz Black Rifle Balm. 
  Gone over everything at least ten times making sure I’m not forgetting anything. Even still, I probably did and will come back from the range feeling stupid for something obvious. 

[98Z5V]

Run it wet, and it should run well.  Good lookin' boom-stick there. 

[DayWalker]

That thing turned out looking good my man, I like it. Reading this thread, I see it’s been a bitch to get together, but it looks like it should be worth it. Random side note, I personally love the look of steel mags. Can’t beat the PMags for reliability, but the steel ones always look cooler. 

[Knuckledragger]

Sitting in my truck in the shooting range parking lot.  I’m calling it a success. Ran through 65 rounds. 60 M118 1979 vintage with zero issues. Tried 5 Federal Gold Medal Berger 185gr, and two of them didn’t go fully into battery without a small push on the assist, one by releasing the held bolt, the other using the CH. Bolt hold open on empty every time. Getting some swiping on the base and a scratch on the case. Thinking some polishing of the feed ramps is in order, unless someone has better advice. 
   All in all, I’m thrilled with the gun. Today was all about function check, and it’s doing the job. It’s only a 25 yard indoor range, so it can’t stretch it’s legs at all, but all the groups were ragged holes or clover leaves. I’ll spend more time tuning the gas system and dialing the scope in when I’m in Michigan shooting on my family’s land. Will take pics later when I pull it down to check everything. 

[98Z5V]

It'll smooth out, with more rounds through it.  Well done.  

[Knuckledragger]

2 hours ago, DayWalker said:

That thing turned out looking good my man, I like it. Reading this thread, I see it’s been a bitch to get together, but it looks like it should be worth it. Random side note, I personally love the look of steel mags. Can’t beat the PMags for reliability, but the steel ones always look cooler. 

Thank you, I’m liking it more and more. 
  I chose the mags for COAL. The stainless 20 rounders and the Magpul MAG577 will both handle 2.83”. Thinking about it now, it was only using the stainless 20’s that I had out of battery issues. I’ll have to look into that more in the future. 

[Knuckledragger]

So, after separating and bagging my brass from the range today, I found this little gem. I didn’t realize I had added in the automatic de-priming option when I ordered the parts 🤔

  looking at it closer, there’s a hole blown right through it to the anvil. I’m unsure if I’m looking at an ammo issue here, or something else. I policed up all of the brass I could. I’m sure a few got away from me & got swept up. They’re pretty fastidious about keeping the range clean.    
 

Of the 54 empties of Lake City rounds, 1 had the pierced and extruded primer shown, about 1/3 of them show cratering, and the rest look (to me) relatively normal.

The 3 Federal Gold Medal Berger 185gr rounds I managed to retrieve all look perfect on the base. 1 shows the barest hint of swiping, the other two none at all. Primers on each look picture perfect, no cratering, no piercing.

All brass is showing the same gouges from the feed ramps. My first inclination is to pull the barrel off a try to polish away the edges right at the end of the ramps, but I’m trying not to go too far down the rabbit hole without seeing the whole picture. 
 

  I’m thinking it wouldn’t hurt to soften the edges of the ejector, but again, I’m trying to take it slow here and think before picking up the tools. Is it acceptable? Is it a brass issue rather than an ejector issue? Primer issue on the Lake City rounds (1979 Lot 60-32)? Inquiring minds want to know. 
  Last pic is just because I just like how the cut foam in the case turned out. Not perfect, but a damn sight better than I’d expected from doing the job using my wife’s electric carving knife and a healthy slug of bourbon. 
 

More to come, I’m sure. You guys will get sick of me before long at this rate. 😆

[98Z5V]

Hot loads.  I wouldn't sweat it yet.  Give the gun some shooting time. The FGGM 185 Berger Juggernauts that I've shot so far - THAT is some hot ammo!  But it's effective, as hell.  It's not "too hot", but it's up there.  They're not joking around with those loads, I'll tell you that.  @Armed Eye Doc will like that part.

Those 185 Juggernauts are serious.  I need to replicate that load...   I'm full-Hornady Whore on the 178 ELD-X projectiles right now, changed ALL my .308Win handloads over to them, and they are absolutely badass, in the handload that I have going on.  Unreal projectile, for a .308 Win loading... I need to pick up some of these 185 Juggernauts, and start loading them. For them, Ive only fired the factory Federal ammo with them - but they're impressive, as all hell.

[Rsquared]

1 hour ago, Knuckledragger said:

I like your skill at stowing. That case came out pretty good.

[Knuckledragger]

2 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Hot loads.  I wouldn't sweat it yet.  Give the gun some shooting time. The FGGM 185 Berger Juggernauts that I've shot so far - THAT is some hot ammo!  But it's effective, as hell.  It's not "too hot", but it's up there.  They're not joking around with those loads, I'll tell you that.  @Armed Eye Doc will like that part.

Those 185 Juggernauts are serious.  I need to replicate that load...   I'm full-Hornady Whore on the 178 ELD-X projectiles right now, changed ALL my .308Win handloads over to them, and they are absolutely badass, in the handload that I have going on.  Unreal projectile, for a .308 Win loading... I need to pick up some of these 185 Juggernauts, and start loading them. For them, Ive only fired the factory Federal ammo with them - but they're impressive, as all hell.

This plus about 1,200 Lake City primed brass is what I’ve gathered so far for load development. I see lots of quality time with a chronograph in my future. 

[Knuckledragger]

2 hours ago, Rsquared said:

I like your skill at stowing. That case came out pretty good.

Thank you. First one I’ve done. 

[Knuckledragger]

Btw, it just occurred to me that I’ve got the gas block on this gun closed up right now, so I’m sure it’s overgassed AF. Might account for the swiped brass?  
 Eventually I’ll tune it better, but for the moment I’m just glad it runs. I’m assuming that the parts need to be mated up better before trying to tune the gas system would be worth the time. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Knuckledragger
Spelling.

[Belt Fed]

Nice lookin rifle, you did a good job. the case is awesome too. also we never get tired of pics.

[Cliff R]

I was given a recommendation couple of years back when working up loads for our 308's to take out West for Elk hunting.  42 grains of Varget pushing 175 grain Barnes LRX bullets. 

No pressure signs in any of our rifles and good accuracy from all of them.  Pressure builds quickly with heavy projectiles so always best to start on the bottom of the scale and work your way up.

If you are "cratering" primers and blowing one out here and there for sure the weapon doesn't like that load much and I'd move on to something else........FWIW.....

NICE build BTW, and pretty typical of these rifles to mark the brass up a bit, just goes with the territory....

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Cliff R

[Knuckledragger]

Appreciate the info, @Cliff R  I have a couple pounds of Varget. I’ll grab up some of those Barnes bullets next time I’m at Gunstop. 

[Sisco]

On 6/21/2020 at 2:18 AM, 98Z5V said:

Hot loads.  I wouldn't sweat it yet.  Give the gun some shooting time. The FGGM 185 Berger Juggernauts that I've shot so far - THAT is some hot ammo!  But it's effective, as hell.  It's not "too hot", but it's up there.  They're not joking around with those loads, I'll tell you that.  @Armed Eye Doc will like that part.

Those 185 Juggernauts are serious.  I need to replicate that load...   I'm full-Hornady Whore on the 178 ELD-X projectiles right now, changed ALL my .308Win handloads over to them, and they are absolutely badass, in the handload that I have going on.  Unreal projectile, for a .308 Win loading... I need to pick up some of these 185 Juggernauts, and start loading them. For them, Ive only fired the factory Federal ammo with them - but they're impressive, as all hell.

98 nailed it. Plus M118LR From 1979 translates to 41 year old cartridges. Did not realize that cartridge was that old. Most ammo gets a bit hotter as it ages, and the M118 was a max load to begin with. Like I mentioned in a previous post, even the newer M118LR is 100 fps faster then the FGMM according to my chrono.

[Sisco]

On 6/21/2020 at 4:50 AM, Knuckledragger said:

This plus about 1,200 Lake City primed brass is what I’ve gathered so far for load development. I see lots of quality time with a chronograph in my future. 

You have some good powders there. Can load the RL15 a little faster then the Varget because it is a little faster burning so the pressure curve is a little flattened. But Varget is tried and true. Haven’t used 4064 except in bolt guns so can’t comment on it.

[unforgiven]

You got a nice setup brother 👍 looks good in the case.

[Knuckledragger]

2 hours ago, Sisco said:

98 nailed it. Plus M118LR From 1979 translates to 41 year old cartridges. Did not realize that cartridge was that old. Most ammo gets a bit hotter as it ages, and the M118 was a max load to begin with. Like I mentioned in a previous post, even the newer M118LR is 100 fps faster then the FGMM according to my chrono.

Well shiit..... Probably not the best choice to break it in with, then.  I didn’t realize it would get hotter with age.  

[Sisco]

3 minutes ago, Knuckledragger said:

Well shiit..... Probably not the best choice to break it in with, then.  I didn’t realize it would get hotter with age.  

The other thing, you didn't buy HSM M118 LR, did you? Also called " Hunting Shack Munitions"? That does not have a good rep around here.

[Knuckledragger]

1 hour ago, Sisco said:

The other thing, you didn't buy HSM M118 LR, did you? Also called " Hunting Shack Munitions"? That does not have a good rep around here.

Negative. Got it from Midway. 

[Cliff R]

I missed the part about the ammo being 41 years old, good thing to point out.  Inconsistency is only part of the equation, blowing out a primer is telling you that at least that round had some pretty serious issues making the entire lot unsafe for test firing....IMHO   I'd shelve that stuff and make up some "fresh" loads on the lower end of the scale.  Keep in mind that if you are starting out with heavier bullets there will be a quicker pressure rise than if you were to run some 150 grain bullets thru it instead.  You've got more weight to get moving, and more engagement in the rifling as well, which all lead to increased pressure(s) over lighter bullets trying to do the same thing with them.

I started all my 308-AR's out on either store bought 150 grain loads or used up a bunch of Sierra 150 grain soft points I had left over from decades ago.  I pushed them with either H-414 or BLC2 nearly as I can remember, on the entry level end of the scale.  Remarkably they shot very well despite the fast twist in these barrels.  Once we had our rifles ran-in some I started putting the 175 grain Barnes loads thru them.  Never saw any groups much more than 1" at 100 yards, and some were much tighter for 3-4 rounds till things heated up some. 

The pic attached shows one of the first groups I fired at 100 yards with my 14.7" PSA build.  The first two rounds are down around 6 oclock and nearly in the same hole, the next two at 3 oclock and touching, then it threw the 5th round a little high but still fairly well centered.  Acceptable for a pencil barreled 14.7" hunting set-up....IMHO.....

[Knuckledragger]

Thanks for the info, @Cliff R . I’ll pick up some lighter loads before I shoot this one more. 
  I realized from reading back that I need to clarify some of what I’ve said. The ammo I was shooting is M118 Match FMJ with a ‘79 headstamp that I bought locally. I also bought some M118LR with a 2019 headstamp from MidwayUSA, but I haven’t shot any of that yet. 

[Aero308]

On 6/13/2020 at 11:06 PM, KINGOFTHEPOORS said:

Bro!!! I just made a profile on here because I’m having a lot of trouble with an M5 build I’m trying to complete. So maybe similarities with parts and problems. I’ll make a separate thread for help. But basically I have the upper gap. I guess I’ll have to lap the upper? A strange problem is the barrel can be moved relatively easily. The gunsmith here completely did a terrible job of assembling my upper. I made this profile for help. Or if anyone knows any good gun smiths around the Tampa area that would be great. 

Lol im also running into some trouble with my M5 build. Funny I have a list just like this in my notes where I write down all my purchases, dates of purchase, and where I purchased. Curious where you got your upper and lower for so cheap?