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Long Barreled Guns


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BackGround:

In 1990 or so, I bought myself a swell 50 caliber FlintLock from Gander Mountain.

That sucker was Extremely Long barreled and front heavy and I cant quite remember If it was easy to shoot freehand or not.  That barrel,  no matter what bore butter I used got so fouled that after 2 shots I’d have to do a full cleaning in order to seat the ball and patch.  I never hunted with it and was so displeased with its accuracy I was extremely happy I suckered a pawn shop into giving me a hundred dollars for it years later.  

The Present:

My new .308 rifle works like a dream.  Gas port correct.  Heavy Buffer doing its job.

Scope and rings or even the 18” Heavy fluted Barrel may or not be great.  I am not a sharp shooter with it.  I’d loose my top knot if I was running with Crocket or Boone.  

I tried shooting before with the Magpul Bipod on the far front end at a 30 Yard Target... did ok.  Seemed it was floating around a bit standing while shooting.  5” group maybe at that distance.  Today, at 100 yards, I took the bipod off and tried the same at 100 yards.  6 out of 10 shots hit the 18” square target, no sling to help me steady.  

Question:  Does anybody shoot more accurately standing with a Longer heavier barrel like a 20” or 22” vs a shorter barrel like my 18” or less?  Better with more weight out front or less? I almost think I was more steady with the bipod weight out front, but I’m not certain.  On my next gun it’s more likely to be a longer barrel.  

Maybe a Rifle Length extension/stock  would help me shoot from the standing position better, I just don’t know.

Feel free to answer this topic only if you know what FFFF is.

Edited by DustBuster
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9 minutes ago, DustBuster said:

 Maybe a Rifle Length extension/stock  would help me shoot from the standing position better, I just don’t know.

Shooting fundamentals will help you shoot better.  Attending an Appleseed Shoot will teach you MOUNTAINS of shooting fundamentals, from the prone, sitting, kneeling, and standing positions. 

You should attend an Appleseed Shoot, first and foremost. 

https://appleseedinfo.org/

Pick your state out of here, and find one near you.  It's cheap, too.  Best training you'll ever get.

https://appleseedinfo.org/schedulemap/

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I should attend.  I think the different balance and weight of this Lr-308 will require proper technique and fundementals where another gun type might be more forgiving.  My first muley buck shot through the heart at 100 yards open sights Winchester, The same cannot be done so easily with this type of gun for me.  I am no where near feeling good about a suprise standing shot.  It’s like trying to shoot a single pellet shotgun at a 50 mph little teal flying left to right.  

Thanks for Info 98z5v  

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The more weight at the far end, the harder it will be to hold it steady. I doubt the bipod helped anything. A 5" group at 30yd could be a 15" group at 100. You probably weren't any more steady with the bipod, but the closer target is much easier to keep in your sights so it might feel that way.

 

A sling will go a long way towards steadying up that gun. Practice with good fundamentals will go even further. Shooting an 18" heavy barreled 308 unsupported can get real shakey real quick. 

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Most of those long flinters had a 1 in 66 twist for roundballs.

Finding the right charge and the right patch gives you the accuracy.

Black powder guns are a hoot to shoot. I have taken many deer with then  even the flinters.

Got to know the barrel twist and shoot the right projectile.

There are so many to choose from now.

I would show you my flinters but i am not at home and dont have the pics on this phone

And 4f powder is for priming pans.

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I shot High Power matches competitively for several years while on active duty.  

For the most part the majority of the folks shooting did well until we went to standing/off-hand.  I grew up hunting and shooting game with almost all of it off hand so had an edge on that deal.  It still takes a lot of practice and most of it can be dry-fire.  There are various techniques or ways to shoot off-hand, but it boils right down to what you are comfortable with and the skill level you obtain thru practice and repetition. 

I've never much been fond of heavy or long barrel rifles even for Match shooting.  They have their place but for off-hand a light rifle that drills sub 1" MOA will be fine.  You'll find it easier to hold steady especially for multiple shots on the same target.  Pretty much for each shot you are working your sight picture down to the tightest little figure 8 you can keep in the black and timing your shot for when you are closest to dead center as possible.  It's a skill set developed over time and I've not ran into too many folks who were all that good at it........ 

 

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      There are ,many things that all together make good shooting ,good fundamentals are a must as are good ammo, good sights , and good practice what ammo are you shooting? how much do you practice? the best practice for that type of shooting is a 6 or 8 inch gong and start at 50 yards all offhand practice bringing the rifle up to your shoulder while taking the safety off when the gun goes back down to ready position safety back on then fire at that gong ring it step back 15 paces repeat,kneel fire repeat go through the whole sequence each time  then 100,150. 200, etc as far as you want to shoot . but you must have the same ammo you will hunt with so everything works together.

   Belt fed is correct those Kentucky long rifles are made for round ball only patched lubed and pillow ticking is a great patch material I have killed deer bear elk all with a 50 cal and real black powder not the fake crap,the long sight radius is what makes those long guns so accurate I used to shoot 30 to 40 lbs of black powder a year in matches out to 200 yards and have had many groups in the 1 inch to 2 inch size at 200 they can be very very accurate....

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2 hours ago, Cliff R said:

I grew up hunting and shooting game with almost all of it off hand so had an edge on that deal.

Same here, even my plinking as a kid was random stuff and all about bringing the rifle up and hitting the target fast. This speed thing I had down was not an advantage for me when it came to qualifying type shooting  I didn't know anything but send it quick. 

Regardless of barrel length my favorite rifles to shoot off hand are the the ones that feel balanced.

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Blue109, Roger on the more weight harder to keep steady and my 30yd test with bipod probably not steadier at all than without at 100.

BeltFed, that is cool that you and Magwa are BP shooters, having both learned how to master your LongGuns and find the right charge that is best... I never did know to experiment with that..I just filled the measuring cup to near suggested safe max every time.  BeltFed you get the Quiz award for 4F priming powder.  Magwa, if I can ever shoot my scoped guns like you can shoot your BP weapons, I will be a happy camper.  A+ I salute you.  I like that practice method you suggested.

CliffR, as a competitive shooter like many possibly here, I am impressed with your wisdom and maybe a little trick like having controlled movement(like a figure8) is what I could learn more about if I ever go to one of the Trainings 98 suggested.  There is one about 3 hours away from me that sometime next Spring I’d be smart to sign up for. 

JTallon83, aka QuickShot, I’ve thought before, about what you said, you like a balanced rifle.  Mine is a little front heavy now, especially with the bipod. I might experiment by packing some weight of some usefulness into my magpul stock compartments. Sort of opposite to a bow stabilizer.  Lots of great responses, thank you Gentlemen.  

Ohh, yeah, the fake black powder I have experiment with, not with my cheap ol flintlock that I got rid of, but with my Ruger Old Arm .45 Long Colt.  Man that thing is fun.  I’ve shot smoky BP, Pyrodex, tried Pyrodex pellets, but 777 seems to be my favorite.  It shoots hot similar to the smokeless loads my Pops made up for me with my conversion cylinder.  Some day I may try BP hunting and buy another rifle.  Even an in-line, but it won’t ever be quite as  an achievement as taking an animal ol school flintlock or even hawkin cap n ball.

i have killed three deer with a compound bow, but recurve an Long Bow not yet, maybe someday.

The day I possibly get an animal with my LR-308, accurately, I will think back to you guys and thank you for your help

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On 7/24/2021 at 8:11 AM, Magwa said:

Belt fed is correct those Kentucky long rifles are made for round ball only patched lubed and pillow ticking is a great patch material I have killed deer bear elk all with a 50 cal and real black powder not the fake crap,the long sight radius is what makes those long guns so accurate I used to shoot 30 to 40 lbs of black powder a year in matches out to 200 yards and have had many groups in the 1 inch to 2 inch size at 200 they can be very very accurate....

Reading this comment, and all the rest got me interested in messing with my muzzleloader again. I had been itching to work out the details of Blackhorn 209 in a sidelock Traditions I built some time ago. This thread pushed me to find and order a 209 primer nipple adapter for that 50 cal. Sounds like I might be able to find powder if I take a short drive; and I've already cast boxes of slugs and round balls for it. 

Not a super long rifle in this case; but I really appreciate those little breadcrumbs you all dropped about your experiences ( @Magwa and @Belt Fed :hail:). I think it's time to get serious with mine if I can in fact acquire powder in these difficult times; already have primers from reloading shotgun shells. 

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It's a speed thing. 4f is smaller and used for priming. 3f is a pistol powder; slightly faster. 2f is larger still; and slower, used for rifle rounds. Same for smokeless; pistol powder is fast. And rifle is slower.

Edited by Lane
Hoping I got those right. Smaller size is faster burning.
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The only time I used BP for my pistol I used the 2F kind, I believe.  Never have tried the 3F.  About 10 years ago I think I ordered some powder online and paid the fee, but for sure I remember getting about 3 more of those red and silver containers at a gun show.  I  don’t have any priming powder from my flintlock days.  I use #11 magnum caps on the pistol.  Finding 209 primers for the LongGuns might have been as hard as finding regular primers.  

My little stockpile hasn’t been touched in over 3 years.  Magwa or BeltFed would burn through my stash in about a month.

I had a House I was renting and the old basement made a great place to testfire my pistol.  When I moved I swept up about 7 lbs of squished lead balls.  Neighbors about 50 ft away never did hear me I believe.  Those were the good ol days.

I don’t even remember how much 2F I put in my cylinders... Chuck Hawks has some info on it I think I followed.  I left room enough for a wafer wad, then seated the ball.  Then to prevent chain fire I put some bore butter wax flushing out the cyclinder.

Pressure was obviously low enough, kind of like TrailBoss in a brass case.  Fill er up as much as you want.  If I did that with 3F or 4F maybe I’d regret it. Good luck with the powder run and the Traditions mod, Lane, I have not even noticed how the supply is for that kind

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9 hours ago, Belt Fed said:

Does anyone know why 2f is for rifles and 3f mainly for pistols?

Although it can be used with the right charge and why 4f is not for main charges in either?

It is the size of the grains, double FF is a course powder liken it to course salt Triple FFF is a priming powder and small caliber powder up to 45 cal .

OK If you are going to shoot a muzzle loader do so the right way NO 209 primers, no scopes, no fake powder, and no Sabots or slugs unless it is a civil war musket and they were made to shoot mini balls or half slugs that were hollow at the base... real percussion caps or even better a flint lock all this modern day crap has ruined what was a great opportunity to have a season all to yourself where skill was involved, now it is a joke guys are shooting 2 and 300 yards with sabots and fake powder and primers that go off every time... total BS muzzle loaders are awesome guns just like you learn the way to build a 308 AR there are things you have to learn about muzzle loaders.. and the reward is worth it...

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4 hours ago, Magwa said:

 

OK If you are going to shoot a muzzle loader do so the right way NO 209 primers, no scopes, no fake powder, and no Sabots or slugs unless it is a ... real percussion caps or even better a flint lock all this modern day crap has ruined ....

Ha ha ha.  Let me tell you, if for some corny reason you want a basement practice range, Black Powder will require you to evacuate after every shot!  Maybe wait about a half hour unless you use a gas mask!  Even the “Fake Crap” is a little foul to the fresh air!  I’m in the middle of that issue, but I see how it could ruin the seasons the more the MuzzelLoader becomes like a regular rifle

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13 hours ago, shooterrex said:

The more F's the finer the grind on the powder. I'm betting if you use your powder measure then weigh the charges the 4F would which more. The larger grind would have more air spaces.

This right here is the correct answer..

If your loading the max charge on a 50 cal rifle with 2 f then the finer 4 f at that same amount of charge will be too much

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the burn rate is what the F's are standing for the more F's the faster the burn rate and higher pressure and yes the coarse powder like 2 F and 1 F 2 is rifle powder till you get below 45 cal then the smaller calibers use 3 f 1 F is cannon powder i shot between 90 and 140 grains of 2f in a 50 cal barrel that was 1 and 1/8th across the flats the proof load was 200 grains and the length of the barrel was 32 and it was percussion a 36cal squirrel gun may only shoot 35 grains of 3 F....

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Here's what I think is the bootom line for this thread you started.  You have a shooting fundamentals issue. 

You talk of shooting at 30 yards.  Your gun don't matter at 30 yards - it's a long gun, not a pistol.  The shittiest barely-qualifying Army recruits can keep it on the paper at 25 meters. 

You need training.  It's not the gun.  Quit trying to find a problem with the gun, and go get some training.  Appleseed is gonna be your best, cheapest resource for that.

Stop delaying it, and get some real training.  Or enlist.  They'll give it to you, through BRM.

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Posted (edited)

Yes.  Maybe you are 100% right.  I need training, cause I’m a shitty azs shot with the gun as it is.  I have not noticed any other gun so hard to shoot accurately, even when pretty solid on the bench.  The thing is a different animal for sure than my 22” 30-06.  I am glad this thread spun off into Black Powder guns, however.  Like Magwa said, the Art of shooting traditional weapons and making them go....  ssssss whooof...... crack, is like these Lr-308s.  Some people are jack of all trades, master of none.  So far I am that with Rifles, Bows, Pistols, fishing poles, computers, radios, and the sex swing!  Never have shot from one of those.  I’d have to use Lanes computations of gravitational counter measures and dynamics to even be able to shoot from then correct direction off that table. Maybe the way to cheat on that would be to put a bowling ball in ones rigid frame backpack, contained but able to roll.  Kind of like the Masses they put inside some skyscrapers to dampen the building harmonics.  I do need to be able to shoot good with my LR, I will try my best to train instead of asking any more questions searching for an equipment answer that isn’t there.  I’m impressed with that accurized shoot thread, you guys are pros and an apple seed shoot for me would be my first step in a long climb to your caliber.  Thanks seriously.  I’ve looked it up and the towns that they are in would be good to travel to.

Edited by DustBuster
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28 minutes ago, DustBuster said:

Yes.  Maybe you are 100% right. 

 

 

I do need to be able to shoot good with my LR, I will try my best to train instead of asking any more questions searching for an equipment answer that isn’t there.

Maybe?  Are you kidding?  You can't hit the broad side of a barn at 30 yards.  And what get's me TO MY CORE is that you keep looking for RIFLE PROBLEMS. 

Come on - it's THIRTY YARDS!  it's not a problem in the gun, at THIRTY YARDS. 

You need to learn how to shoot, accurately.  If you can't tie that together at 30 yards - it AIN'T the gun. 

The Arrow is probably good - but it's the Indian that has the issue. Stop looking for problems with your gun until you can CAP a 1" group at 30 yards - that seems to be your favorite.  Once you're all HOT on that one, you better be able to cap a 1/2" group at 30 yards. 

For .mil "Zero Qualifications", you had to have 3 rounds touching, at 25 meters.  Or, you were gonna suck, and qualify shiitty. You were given 18 rounds to Zero - and you either did, or didn't, and you either did well, or sucked, because you couldn't zero a gun with 18 rounds.  If you couldn't zero a gun with 18 rounds - you had SHOOTING FUNDAMENTALS problems.  Simple as that. You failed BRM - after you were trained ALL THE WAY through it - and, you probably recycled in Basic Training, just because of that. 

Work on getting your ass to an Appleseed.  That's the least amount of money you;ll ever spend for the quality of their training that you will receive.  You need it.  Appleseeds are 25 yards.

Edited by 98Z5V
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I'm done in this thread, like I was done in your previous threads - when you kept blaming the gun. 

Your gun isn't the issue here, with your shiitty shooting.  You just can't shoot.

You need some serious - SERIOUS - shooting fundamentals.  And you need to master them.  MASTER them. 

It's not your gun, so stop making posts about "My gun this..." and all that shiit that you're doing.  You can't accurately hit a target, at THIRTY YARDS. 

That falls on YOU, and not the gun.  Go work on you, come back once someone has trained you. Appleseed is the best, cheapest course of action that you'll ever receive.  You might have to attend one, MORE than once, to get your Rifleman Qual out of that program.

What you need to do right now, is stop blaming the gun.  At 30 yards, your Rifle Marksmanship sucks.  It's NOT the gun. It's you.

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A friend of mine showed up last Saturday with NIB Taurus Judge in .410.

Hey, look at what I just bought he said.  So we walk over to my 55 gallon drum burn barrel to ventilate it a few times, or that was the plan.

We are about 20 feet away and my friend fires one round and hits it dead center.  Then he fires two more rounds and hits about a foot in front and a foot to the left of the barrel.  He finished off the remaining rounds and same thing, it's shooting about 3 feet low and 1 foot to the left.  I said hey man, the worms are putting up white flags and you are tearing up my yard.

So he grumbles at me under his breath, reloads, and fires again, same thing.  So I ask him to hand it to me and I fire two rounds and they hit dead center.  Before handing it back to him I open the cylinder and rotate it back so it's going to come up on an empty round the next shot  (we called this "ball and dummy" back in my Military range days and used to train new shooters with huge "anticipation" problems).


So I hand it back to him and he takes careful aim and "click".  At the same time the gun goes down about 2"  as he anticipates the shot and jerks the trigger at the same moment.  He turned to me and said you SOB.  I just smiled and told him that he needs to work on fundamentals and to quit worrying about the recoil.

Case in point here, my friend, like many hundred of other shooters I've seen over the years had no idea that subconsciously he was doing anything at all wrong........FWIW......

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Posted (edited)

Understood. Seldom have I squeezed the trigger so slowly that it’s a suprise when it goes off, timing it for on full exhale, etc.  Seldom also have I kept Trigger pulled like a follow through.  Many things for me to improve.  I have my wonderings on my scope some other aspects of my rifle, and those are in other threads.  This thread was initially about whether a longer barrel gun, maybe front heavy, is easier or harder to hold steady on standing shots... I was curious as to what you all thought.  I got some replies that answered that question, and some helpful ideas on how to make the gun inherently more steady.  The follow through is important, and I think you, @Cliff R, are showing this.  That’s a great story. Thank you.  As far as my 30 or 100 Yard prone accuracy, (different threads) I still am not convinced yet that it is all my poor skills, I do want to put my better scope on it and see if things change.  I’m getting weird inconsistencies like split groups.  One group at 100, most recently, had two Nearly touching, and two four and 5 inches to the left.  No matter how much I ever jerked my 30-06 trigger, it was never that bad.  I’m not that bad of a shooter.  Anyway, improving my skills, ammo, equipment, and practice will all be good things.

Edited by DustBuster
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