AdamO Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 I am doing a build using the AP M5 upper and lower combo and I have both sitting on the shelf at home. I've not ordered my BCG or barrel for it yet so I can't comment on how the FA engages with an actual .308 carrier. However when I get home tonight, I'll pull the upper off one of my 15's and lay them out side by site. It won't be a perfect gauge since the dimensions are entirely different, but at the very least I can snap a picture of where/how the FA contact engages in relation to an AR15 upper. Stay tuned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guruofhotrod Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) It looks like they have positioned the forward assist on there 308 the same as on a std . AR 15 . The AR 15/16 Bolt Carrier has notches on the lower right side for forward assist to catch on , where most 308 ( not sure on an AR 10 ) the forward assist catches on a lip on the Bolt Carrier. DSCN2108.JPG If ( as in the Areo ) the F/A is designed on the same place as the AR 15 type Receiver , the Bolt Carrier needs some notches like the AR 15/16 Bolt carrier . If not , the FA has nothing to grab to use it . Unless Areo makes there own 308 Bolt Carrier with notches like the AR 15/16 . This photo shows where the F/A on my DPMS contacts the Bolt carrier. DSCN2106.JPG Heres a photo where you can see the F/A contacting the Bolt Carrier & one with no assist engaged DSCN2103.JPG DSCN2104.JPG This a early DPMS upper & others may be different , if you get the Areo & use a DPMS or some others ( my Shadow Ops is the same way ) Bolt Carrier , they don't have the notches , like the AR 15/16 Bolt carrier , the Areo F/A will not work . Thanks, I completely agree, and have not yet seen a 308 BCG that is notched for a F/A - this sounds like it's gonna get interesting??? Looks like Aero has updated their listing for the 308 BCG they offer and guess what, no serrations : http://aeroprecisionusa.com/spare-parts/aero-precision-complete-308-bolt-carrier-group.html Edited August 6, 2014 by guruofhotrod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 One of you love sick AR 10 owners , post a photo of an AR 10 BCG . <thumbsup> Does it have the F/A in the same as the Areo & does the BC look like an AR 15/16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guruofhotrod Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) A quick peek at Armalite's website confirmed that they do in fact have serrations for the F/A : http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10501001&ReturnUrl=Categories2.aspx?Category=d4a8754c-1a38-4412-b9d3-33699f13666c is it possible to use a Armalite BCG in an otherwise DPMS type rifle? wondering if the bolt would properly engage in the DPMS type barrel extension? perhaps it would also require an Armalite style barrel? Edited August 6, 2014 by guruofhotrod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamO Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) Ok, so I just got home and did a close inspection on the Aero M5 upper I have. Like I said I don't have the .308 BCG and Barrel yet so some of this is pure conjecture... But... here are some interesting things I did note. I started by pulling apart one of my other AR-15's that has an SAA upper which to my knowledge is made by Aero. The M5 (.308) upper is darn near as if you stuck it in the copy machine and blew it up about 15%. Relative to its larger size the FA is in the same place. In fact it appears to be AR-15 FA parts, full stop. Just for kicks I took the AR-15 bolt and charging handle and slid it into the M5 upper and as it stands I'm not entirely certain that an AR-15 charging handle is going to cut it in this upper. It all depends on how/where the gas key will engage the gas tube on a .308 carrier, but at first blush, the AR-15 charging handle appears to be a little bit short on travel than what is required. Here again I reiterate that I DO NOT HAVE ON HAND A 308 BCG so I very well may be mistaken... What is notable is that I put the AR-15s BCG into the upper and although it's much too small and short in diameter... the FA did in fact engage in the side AR-15 carrier's serrations and would in fact push the bolt forward as one would expect. I don't know what that means without an honest to God .308 BCG on hand to install into this thing... It suggests that for all intents and purposes... Aero's .308 upper is just an upscaled version of their AR-15 upper in every possible way. It looks practically identical to the SAA upper I was comparing it to. The machining reliefs.... everything. I know I promised pictures but I left my phone on my desk at work so tomorrow I'll put some up... For now, I'm glad to muddy the water. Maybe warthog984 can confirm or dispel some of my blather here since he has a fully built and somewhat functioning 308 using this upper and lower (albeit with some teething issues.) At the very least this is certainly worth a phone call to Aero Precision -AdamO Edited August 7, 2014 by AdamO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guruofhotrod Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) Relative to its larger size the FA is in the same place. In fact it appears to be AR-15 FA parts, full stop. Yes, the DPMS type .308's that have a F/A provision use the standard AR 15 F/A assembly Just for kicks I took the AR-15 bolt and charging handle and slid it into the M5 upper and as it stands I'm not entirely certain that an AR-15 charging handle is going to cut it in this upper. It all depends on how/where the gas key will engage the gas tube on a .308 carrier, but at first blush, the AR-15 charging handle appears to be a little bit short on travel than what is required. The 308 charging handle is very similar to the AR 15 charging handle but, it is a bit longer to accommodate the larger bolt carrier and receiver's additional travel to cycle the longer .308 rounds. What is notable is that I put the AR-15s BCG into the upper and although it's much too small and short in diameter... the FA did in fact engage in the side AR-15 carrier's serrations and would in fact push the bolt forward as one would expect. Above, in post #27 I placed a link to the revised Aero .308 BCG web page and it provides 4 pics very clearly showing a typical DPMS type BCG with no notches/serrations for the F/A I'm considering buying one of these but I'd like to know how the Aero engineers intend for their F/A configuration (That I'll probably never need to use!) to function. Thanks to everyone for their help Edited August 7, 2014 by guruofhotrod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamO Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) Yes, the DPMS type .308's that have a F/A provision use the standard AR 15 F/A assembly The 308 charging handle is very similar to the AR 15 charging handle but, it is a bit longer to accommodate the larger bolt carrier and receiver's additional travel to cycle the longer .308 rounds. Above, in post #27 I placed a link to the revised Aero .308 BCG web page and it provides 4 pics very clearly showing a typical DPMS type BCG with no notches/serrations for the F/A I'm considering buying one of these but I'd like to know how the Aero engineers intend for their F/A configuration (That I'll probably never need to use!) to function. Thanks to everyone for their help I saw you post in #27. And I have the same thought... It doesn't make any sense that Aero would offer a bolt for their own M5 design and not have it operate with their FA design does it?. However, looking around at almost every other DPMS upper out there, the FA clearly is in a much different location on Aero's upper. I'm as curious about this as you are and I will for sure be on the phone to Aero tomorrow asking these questions and hopefully getting to the bottom of... something... Just for the sake of stirring the pot some more... allow me to flaunt my ignorance of how "I read it on the Internet!" (haha) that you could use an Armalite BCG and barrel in a DPMS upper. (Hoping it is OK to cross link here for the sake of research?) http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/473900_Which_Bolt_Carrier_Group_should_I_choose__Armalite_AR10_BCG_or_DPMS_Chrome__308_BCG.html My understanding is DPMS spec parts for DPMS uppers and AR-10 parts for AR-10s. I'm still in my research phase and this one I'm doing now will be my first ever attempt at a 308 build just so everyone is aware of my real world hands on experience (which is basically bupkiss). To take what I say with a pound of salt. Although... if that is in fact true,.... that AR-10 barrels and BCGs will play in a DPMS upper, then it may be the answer to the FA mystery since the AR-10 uses a serrated BCG. Edited August 7, 2014 by AdamO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 I don't see why you couldn't use the Armilite BCG in your Areo receiver , as long as the bolt head spaces correctly . I think the main difference is the different threads on the barrel nuts /Receivers , but there still could be fitment problems using different manufacturers platforms parts. Just remember , there are no standards for these rifles , like AR 15/16 family , if you use one manufacturers parts for a build , you have the best chance of having no fitment problems , but don't bet your life on it . You are still building a rifle & putting yourself in the realm of being a seasoned gunsmith. Problems can arise & you will need to deal with them . Just not like buying a factory rifle & letting the warranty take care of it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog984 Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 Ok, so I just got home and did a close inspection on the Aero M5 upper I have. Like I said I don't have the .308 BCG and Barrel yet so some of this is pure conjecture... But... here are some interesting things I did note. I started by pulling apart one of my other AR-15's that has an SAA upper which to my knowledge is made by Aero. The M5 (.308) upper is darn near as if you stuck it in the copy machine and blew it up about 15%. Relative to its larger size the FA is in the same place. In fact it appears to be AR-15 FA parts, full stop. Just for kicks I took the AR-15 bolt and charging handle and slid it into the M5 upper and as it stands I'm not entirely certain that an AR-15 charging handle is going to cut it in this upper. It all depends on how/where the gas key will engage the gas tube on a .308 carrier, but at first blush, the AR-15 charging handle appears to be a little bit short on travel than what is required. Here again I reiterate that I DO NOT HAVE ON HAND A 308 BCG so I very well may be mistaken... What is notable is that I put the AR-15s BCG into the upper and although it's much too small and short in diameter... the FA did in fact engage in the side AR-15 carrier's serrations and would in fact push the bolt forward as one would expect. I don't know what that means without an honest to God .308 BCG on hand to install into this thing... It suggests that for all intents and purposes... Aero's .308 upper is just an upscaled version of their AR-15 upper in every possible way. It looks practically identical to the SAA upper I was comparing it to. The machining reliefs.... everything. I know I promised pictures but I left my phone on my desk at work so tomorrow I'll put some up... For now, I'm glad to muddy the water. Maybe warthog984 can confirm or dispel some of my blather here since he has a fully built and somewhat functioning 308 using this upper and lower (albeit with some teething issues.) At the very least this is certainly worth a phone call to Aero Precision -AdamO I removed my F/A and put a gas vent in its place for suppressor use. I did try F/A before removing it and it did not work. I have a DPMS BCG and it has mentioned above that it does not have serrations to catch the F/A. Based on the review on Midway USA by The Wild Woman, I know the F/A was useless going into the build and decided a gas vent from Weopons Outfitters was more appropriate for my build since I shoot suppressed. Here is the link for the review: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1413131451/dpms-bolt-carrier-assembly-lr-308-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding Off subject. Has anyone tried this BCG sold by Midway USA? APF Armory Bolt Carrier Assembly LR-308 308 Winchester Nickel Boron http://www.midwayusa.com/product/285430/apf-armory-bolt-carrier-assembly-lr-308-308-winchester-nickel-boron?cm_vc=ProductFinding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robocop1051 Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 If I had the machines to do it, I'd mill the FA off all my rifles and bolt a plate over the hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamO Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 To hell with the FA, I bought the Aero upper and lower cause it seems like a good deal for the money. I'm sticking with my plan to get my bolt and barrel from Fulton and send in my upper to have them do the whole precision-install-headspace-port-n-polish-3-angle-valve-job thing.... If it runs like it should I'll never need the FA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guruofhotrod Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) At this point, I'm thinking that rather than creating all this confusion by including a feature on a "DPMS" type upper that won't work with the majority of (if not all) DPMS type BCG's, they should have just made it a "slick sided" upper. Edited August 7, 2014 by guruofhotrod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamO Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 If I had the machines to do it, I'd mill the FA off all my rifles and bolt a plate over the hole. I can handle that one for you! ;) Even have a buddy who Duracoats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted August 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 I like this guy already. Not only is he an Arizonan,... He's gonna fit in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsquared Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 One of you love sick AR 10 owners , post a photo of an AR 10 BCG. It's already getting too late.......I gotta crash. I'll pull one of my bolt carrier's tomorrow to put up a pic. Just about all of my Armalite carrier's have the "grooves" in them. Except my original A2 carbine. It was smooth (the carrier). And the exterior of the upper didn't have the FA. I'm not 100% sure. But I think shortly after I bought my original A2 was when Armalite went to putting the FA on just about most of their rifles. Hell, they don't even offer A2 style uppers anymore. Yeah, yeah......laugh at me. I still like the look of the original "Eugene" design w/the fixed carry handle. Not that a flattop doesn't have a place in my heart either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamO Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 More information: Just got off the phone with Jessica at Aero customer service and asked about the FA. Aero is releasing their own BCG in September that will have the serrations for the FA. Parkerized only to start with a NiB coming sometime in the future. ETA unknown. Also an AR-10 BCG will run in that upper according to them, just make sure to match the barrel extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guruofhotrod Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 Ahhhh, Good to know, I've called 3 times in the past 2 weeks and all 3 times hit their voice mail and left messages - still haven't gotten a call back Thanks for the update, I'm kinda on the fence on this deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamO Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 I jumped in. For a matched upper/lower for $280ish shipped I couldn't pass it by (they had a discount code FREEDOM for 15% off). I'm gonna move forward with my original plan using a matched BCG and BBL from Fulton and so what if the FA doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog984 Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 Just curious why you think you need the F/A? I have used mine only a couple of times. Usually on a new upper that I did not had cycle and lube well. I guess I can see the reason if it is installed why not have it function. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog984 Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 More information: Just got off the phone with Jessica at Aero customer service and asked about the FA. Aero is releasing their own BCG in September that will have the serrations for the FA. Parkerized only to start with a NiB coming sometime in the future. ETA unknown. Also an AR-10 BCG will run in that upper according to them, just make sure to match the barrel extension. AdamO.....Did you know the front take down pin is different for the Aero upper and lower combo. It is longer than the standard DPMS. I suggest you get that from Aero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted August 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Also an AR-10 BCG will run in that upper according to them, just make sure to match the barrel extension. That's what we preach, and have known, for years. Doesn't matter what platform your upper and lower are (those two have to match), but you can run Armalite guts in a DPMS-based upper and lower, and vice-versa. Sorry, RRA guys, that's not for you - you guys have to stick to your own proprietary $hit. Thank Bushmaster for that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 No worries ain't gotta change a fuckin thing internally on my RRA brother. ^-^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamO Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 AdamO.....Did you know the front take down pin is different for the Aero upper and lower combo. It is longer than the standard DPMS. I suggest you get that from Aero. Sure thing brother. Good looking out. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 RRA pins are longer than DPMS-based and Armalite-based pins, too. warthog, can you measure your front pivot pin and provide the length? I can compare that to an RRA pin and see if it's the same. That way, we'll know. <thumbsup> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketch Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Well stated 98 RRA owners are longer and proprietary to a good time!! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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