Working on a PSA PA-10 build

[Rsquared]

You'll need the following for a barrel install:

-Knight's barrel extension wrench

-Barrel nut wrench (adapter to go on torque wrench)

-Torque wrench (10-100ft-lbs range)

-Molybdenum (moly) grease (make sure no graphite in it), aeroshell 33ms is popular

-Breaker bar

-And Beer!

Fixed it for you.

[crimsonfalcon07]

More complications.  I got the barrel returned, and they attempted to headspace my bolt to a barrel at Rainier, only to find out that the bolt was out of spec.  Great.  I still haven't heard back from SLR Rifleworks regarding the missing gas tube from my order.

 

So.  As per the Rule, I had tried out the Radical Firearms WMD NiB-X coated 308 BCG.  It is out of spec, and fits the adage "you get what you paid for."  Or not even that.  I have contacted Primary Arms to see about returning it for a refund.

 

I have now ordered yet another new BCG to try out, this time from Aero Precision (also the NiB-X one that just came out, brand new).  I figured, rather than asking about it when it's brand new, and knowing that I'll just be told that the Rule stipulates that I have to get it and tell you all, that I'd just do the research.

 

I have thus far learned that PSA PA-10 lowers and Radical Firearms BCG's are NOT good to go, and should be avoided at all costs.  I like the LUTH-AR MBS stock, the Aero receiver set, particularly the M5E1 upper, and the JP Captured RSA.  The Troy ambi release with the Seekins billet button work very well in the Aero set, and make an excellent combination for AP owners.

[darb]

More complications.  I got the barrel returned, and they attempted to headspace my bolt to a barrel at Rainier, only to find out that the bolt was out of spec.  Great.  I still haven't heard back from SLR Rifleworks regarding the missing gas tube from my order.

 

So.  As per the Rule, I had tried out the Radical Firearms WMD NiB-X coated 308 BCG.  It is out of spec, and fits the adage "you get what you paid for."  Or not even that.  I have contacted Primary Arms to see about returning it for a refund.

 

I have now ordered yet another new BCG to try out, this time from Aero Precision (also the NiB-X one that just came out, brand new).  I figured, rather than asking about it when it's brand new, and knowing that I'll just be told that the Rule stipulates that I have to get it and tell you all, that I'd just do the research.

 

I have thus far learned that PSA PA-10 lowers and Radical Firearms BCG's are NOT good to go, and should be avoided at all costs.  I like the LUTH-AR MBS stock, the Aero receiver set, particularly the M5E1 upper, and the JP Captured RSA.  The Troy ambi release with the Seekins billet button work very well in the Aero set, and make an excellent combination for AP owners.

I bought a barrel from them this past summer along with a bolt from them which they headspaced. Why do they no longer offer that service? Sorry about your misfortune.

[edgecrusher]

Crimson, the Rule is not written in stone, but we applaud you for providing valuable info (which is why the Rule was created)

Good thing is, you bought from reputable retailers who are definitely going to make this right. Good luck, we are watching and pulling for you

[Rsquared]

As Shibi would say.......................................

[Rsquared]

Dude. I feel your pain. Trying to piece this thing together. We've all been there.

[blue109]

seriously...this thread makes me hurt for you...but it will work out. gotta keep on keepin on.

[FaRKle!]

More complications.  I got the barrel returned, and they attempted to headspace my bolt to a barrel at Rainier, only to find out that the bolt was out of spec.  Great.  I still haven't heard back from SLR Rifleworks regarding the missing gas tube from my order.

Damn that sucks! How was the bolt out of spec?

I'd try giving SLR a call.

 

 

So.  As per the Rule, I had tried out the Radical Firearms WMD NiB-X coated 308 BCG.  It is out of spec, and fits the adage "you get what you paid for."  Or not even that.  I have contacted Primary Arms to see about returning it for a refund.

 

I have now ordered yet another new BCG to try out, this time from Aero Precision (also the NiB-X one that just came out, brand new).  I figured, rather than asking about it when it's brand new, and knowing that I'll just be told that the Rule stipulates that I have to get it and tell you all, that I'd just do the research.

Heh, he's a fast learner!  <laughs> 

BTW, there are ways of getting around "The Rule," just got to word it the right way  <thumbsup> .

 

 

I have thus far learned that PSA PA-10 lowers and Radical Firearms BCG's are NOT good to go, and should be avoided at all costs.  I like the LUTH-AR MBS stock, the Aero receiver set, particularly the M5E1 upper, and the JP Captured RSA.  The Troy ambi release with the Seekins billet button work very well in the Aero set, and make an excellent combination for AP owners.

Good work!

[crimsonfalcon07]

Well, if I have to buy a bolt anyways, I might as well contribute something to the community, right?

I'm not sure how the bolt was out of spec; they just said that they had tried it on multiple barrels and were unable to headspace it, and could only conclude it was out of spec.  I can't imagine a barrel manufacturer like Rainier having headspace issues with a correctly made bolt.  They'll still headspace if you buy bolt and barrel, and they'll headspace to a customer-provided bolt as well.  They just forgot at first, and then discovered that the bolt was somehow out of spec and unable to headspace to any of their barrels.

 

If I can't get a refund from Primary Arms, I may just buy a JP enhanced bolt to go with the BCG, and get another lower, as I have that spare upper sitting around.  Then I'll have a good start on whatever I end up doing for the next build.

[darb]

Well, if I have to buy a bolt anyways, I might as well contribute something to the community, right?

I'm not sure how the bolt was out of spec; they just said that they had tried it on multiple barrels and were unable to headspace it, and could only conclude it was out of spec.  I can't imagine a barrel manufacturer like Rainier having headspace issues with a correctly made bolt.  They'll still headspace if you buy bolt and barrel, and they'll headspace to a customer-provided bolt as well.  They just forgot at first, and then discovered that the bolt was somehow out of spec and unable to headspace to any of their barrels.

 

If I can't get a refund from Primary Arms, I may just buy a JP enhanced bolt to go with the BCG, and get another lower, as I have that spare upper sitting around.  Then I'll have a good start on whatever I end up doing for the next build.

So why not just buy a bolt from them and have it headspaced to thier barrel? Just asking. ^-^

[crimsonfalcon07]

They don't sell individual bolts outside of the JP bolt that was out of stock.  They pretty much only had standard DPMS BCG's and chromed ones in .308, and the Aero Precision NiB-X BCG was around 100 dollars cheaper than their chromed one, and still less expensive than just a standard DPMS BCG.  The chrome one was almost as much as both BCG's combined.  If I'm paying that much anyways, I'd rather take the chance of getting a better product and find out for the community whether or not the more affordable NiB-X options are worth buying.  If not, Aero and Primary Arms are both reputable dealers, and will doubtless take care of me.  I'm using this build to do a lot of experimentation.  I'll be testing out the build stock to get a baseline before I send it off for the Teludyne Tech Straightjacket treatment, so I will hopefully be able to provide a before and after on that for you all as well.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Calling worked great for SLR.  They were very polite and let me know they'd be sending out the rifle tube today.  The shipment of the original package was quick as well, and I always appreciate a company who is quick to take care of any issues.  Having had about the worst customer service of my life from ASUS this year, I'm especially keen on supporting companies with good customer service.

 

I also got through to Primary Arms, and they've issued me an RMA.  So, all appears to be well.  Hopefully there are no issues with the Aero Precision BCG.

[FaRKle!]

Having had about the worst customer service of my life from ASUS this year, I'm especially keen on supporting companies with good customer service.

That's the problem with those guys! They make EXCELLENT products, but if you happen to be that unlucky minority, it's hell working with them! Reminds me of H&K USA from the 90's till 2010 haha.

Edited December 11, 2014 by FaRKle!

[crimsonfalcon07]

Put it together a little to see what it's going to look like.  I discovered that the bolt catch won't seem to lock back with the BCG anyways.  I hope that the Aero Precision one works appropriately.  I'm getting a little stir crazy waiting for them to ship.

 

 

 

In other news, I'll be moving to Texas next year, as my wife got her top choice neurology residency with the USAF, so I'll actually be able to get 20 round mags for this once again.  Looking forward to getting away from the moronic legislation here.

Edited December 17, 2014 by crimsonfalcon07

[unforgiven]

Congrats to the wife and good luck with the move. <thumbsup>

[blue109]

it shouldn't take a brain surgeon to get this rifle together....

but you seem to have it covered just in case :D

[Donovan]

I'm confused with this thread and a few other threads with regards to the PSA PA10... I had my hands on one a few months back, the owner built it and had no complaints. I decided to build one a couple weeks ago and to advantage of the big sales PSA was having. $129 for the lower and $79 for a Blem upper. I could find no blem on the upper once received.

 

My build:

PSA PA10 LPK

standard AR buffer tube

DPMS 308 Carbine buffer spring

Guntec GT10 3.8oz 2.5" buffer

Magpul STR Stock

MIAD Grip

ToolCraft - VIA Cryptic Coatings NiB BCG

BCM 308 Charging handle

Anderson Manufacturing 18" Barrel - Left over from my Anderson MFG 308 Build

Vltor Low Pro gas block

YHM Flashhider  /Suppressor Mount

Guntec 12 Freefloat handguard - Left over from Anderson MFG 308 build

Moving a Nikon M-308 scope from my Anderson over to this rifle... I like this AR better now.

 

Waiting on the PSA forward assist, but other than that, its done... fit and finish is fantastic, all function checks are perfect, headspace is perfect (checked with Clymer gauges)

 

Even with all the extra goodies installed I have less than $1100 invested to the door! I could not be happier.

The upper and lower fit is snug tight, no play, no wobble, nothing but tight.

 

I'm thinking about buying another set for a future build.

 

I have to believe that the guys having issues are simply kitchen gunsmiths in over there heads... (that's just being honest, if you can't be honest with your own limitations, its going to be a painful adventure for you) or they simply just don't understand that AR10's are not AR15's, you can't mix Company A's lower with Company B's upper and install Company A, B or C's LPK. Those three items have to be from the same manufacture. That is just plain and simple... Complain all you want about how the AR10's have no mil-spec and everything is proprietary... it does nothing to help the parts fit together today! If you want a standard AR10... take charge and do it! If you want a cool AR 308 to play with, build it and move on!

 

anyway... Mine is great, and I want another, especially at that price!

 

I'm sure a few people with take offense to my later comments, I tell it how I see it.

Just thought I would paint a much different picture of the PSA PA10 than what some people here have been repeating as second hand data and no hand on action. Based on the few here that have had there hands on it and gave up... not impressed, and a little scary that you are building your own rifle!

 

(I know how to make an entrance!)

donovan

 

 

CrimsonFalcon, you are going to like Texas, we love guns here!

Edited December 19, 2014 by Donovan

[edgecrusher]

The main issue was PSA early claim of comparability. That couple with early growing pains in their qc department. You got either lucky or a set which was made after they sorted things out. You can't fault anyone for the manufacturers issues, especially when they admitted they screwed up.

I will agree that when building its best to use matched sets, or at least same brand, but that is all over this board.

[survivalshop]

I'm confused with this thread and a few other threads with regards to the PSA PA10... I had my hands on one a few months back, the owner built it and had no complaints. I decided to build one a couple weeks ago and to advantage of the big sales PSA was having. $129 for the lower and $79 for a Blem upper. I could find no blem on the upper once received.

 

My build:

PSA PA10 LPK

standard AR buffer tube

DPMS 308 Carbine buffer spring

Guntec GT10 3.8oz 2.5" buffer

Magpul STR Stock

MIAD Grip

ToolCraft - VIA Cryptic Coatings NiB BCG

BCM 308 Charging handle

Anderson Manufacturing 18" Barrel - Left over from my Anderson MFG 308 Build

Vltor Low Pro gas block

YHM Flashhider  /Suppressor Mount

Guntec 12 Freefloat handguard - Left over from Anderson MFG 308 build

Moving a Nikon M-308 scope from my Anderson over to this rifle... I like this AR better now.

 

Waiting on the PSA forward assist, but other than that, its done... fit and finish is fantastic, all function checks are perfect, headspace is perfect (checked with Clymer gauges)

 

Even with all the extra goodies installed I have less than $1100 invested to the door! I could not be happier.

The upper and lower fit is snug tight, no play, no wobble, nothing but tight.

 

I'm thinking about buying another set for a future build.

 

I have to believe that the guys having issues are simply kitchen gunsmiths in over there heads... (that's just being honest, if you can't be honest with your own limitations, its going to be a painful adventure for you) or they simply just don't understand that AR10's are not AR15's, you can't mix Company A's lower with Company B's upper and install Company A, B or C's LPK. Those three items have to be from the same manufacture. That is just plain and simple... Complain all you want about how the AR10's have no mil-spec and everything is proprietary... it does nothing to help the parts fit together today! If you want a standard AR10... take charge and do it! If you want a cool AR 308 to play with, build it and move on!

 

anyway... Mine is great, and I want another, especially at that price!

 

I'm sure a few people with take offense to my later comments, I tell it how I see it.

Just thought I would paint a much different picture of the PSA PA10 than what some people here have been repeating as second hand data and no hand on action. Based on the few here that have had there hands on it and gave up... not impressed, and a little scary that you are building your own rifle!

 

(I know how to make an entrance!)

donovan

 

 

CrimsonFalcon, you are going to like Texas, we love guns here!

 

 

  If your not a working Gunsmith , you are a kitchen gunsmith !

  Have you test fired this rifle ? As you know , a round count is the only way to gage a firearm , its the final test & be honest with the results . <thumbsup>

 

  Forums like this is where you will see problems with manufacturers products , doesn't make all their products bad or out of spec's . I think you will find that with any Manufacturer , parts that have slight problems . Sure the ones that don't have problems are out there working & won't read about them .Thing is when in Forums such as this one , when you see one after another with some kind of problem , you get kinda skeptical of there QC process & it happens , just the way it is .

 

 Honesty doesn't scare us here , well most of us anyway  <laughs>

[crimsonfalcon07]

I can only think you didn't do a thorough job reading through here.  I documented the issues pretty carefully, and exactly NONE of them have been due to my gunsmithing skill.  And it's not just cross-platform compatibility.  For me, the main issue was that Palmetto State claimed (and still does), the following (taken directly from their website):

"These forged lowers are quality made using 7075-T6 aluminum. The finish is black hardcoat anodize per MIL-8625 Type 3 Class 2.  Additionally the receivers include an integrated trigger guard, and are designed to use AR15 fire control groups so your favorite AR class trigger can be used. These are developed for use with SR-25 pattern magazines - which are commonly available in metal or polymer."

I had planned on getting a full Palmetto State set, and using their LBK, as the website does make clear that several of the parts are proprietary.  I'm not a total moron.  As you can see from looking at this thread, I ordered a Geissele SSA-E ( one of my favorite AR class triggers, and not incidentally, one of THE MOST POPULAR on the market).  Unfortunately, unless you allow PSA to grind on the trigger, that trigger will NOT work with the PA-10, and will instead impact the BCG.  The trigger costs more than the lower.

According to PSA themselves (grammatical mistakes theirs), that issue arose because "- We are fixing the problem on our side with the Geiselle SSA-E Triggers. The issue was with the Takedown and Pivot Pin ports. They were a positioned a little to high, causing the SSA-E hammer to sit slightly to high and making contact with the BCG. We have stop manufacturing the first model PA-10 Lower Receiver. This issue will be corrected with the new model. It will also be listed as a "Multi," caliber lower instead of .308. "

But, they're still selling the defective ones marked with .308, and had no estimate on when the new ones would be available.  If you bought the PA-10 as a battle rifle, having their crappy mil-spec trigger in your gun may be fine with you, and it DOES supposedly work with the ALG triggers, which I have in all of my battle rifles.  But, if you intend, as I do, for your 308 AR to be a PRECISION rifle, and you want a nice PRECISION trigger, like the Geissele triggers, the lowers are out of spec for those, and non-compatible without grinding on your trigger.  Which would still be fine with me, and not an issue, if it were advertised as such.  But it wasn't (and still isn't).  They made the claim that their lowers would be compatible with aftermarket triggers, and to be honest, they SHOULD be.  Well, that turned out not to be the case.  

I'm glad yours worked out for you, and that it fits the bill for what you were trying to do.  But you will find that your rifle is woefully inadequate if you ever decide to upgrade it with a better quality trigger than the mediocre one that comes in the PSA LPK, especially if you do as little research as you did here, and buy what you think would be a good trigger, when in fact there are only a few triggers that work.  Then you'll be the one who's pissed off, especially considering that the trigger costs more than the lower does.

It sounds like you went into your build with budget being the primary concern.  I went in with precision at long-range and overall quality being the primary concern.  I wanted to save money where I could, but when you're working with a mil-spec trigger and an anderson barrel (which, reportedly, is non-chrome lined, and many consider to be junk), and I'm working with a Geissele trigger and a Rainier Ultramatch barrel, we're already looking at completely different types of builds.

And, when you're looking at a build that isn't going to be compatible with a lot of aftermarket parts for 208 shipped to your door (and without upper parts installed, which doubtless cost you more), and I'm looking at a matched non-blem AP set with assembled upper for 225 shipped to my door, and one that I KNOW was done right and will be compatible with aftermarket triggers, do you still think you got a better deal?  And that's leaving aside the military discount we got because my wife is active duty.

Edited December 19, 2014 by crimsonfalcon07

[crimsonfalcon07]

Oh, and I'm amused to notice that the spring that Croaker hated so much on the AP upper is sticking up in the ejection port on the PA-10 also.

[FaRKle!]

standard AR buffer tube

DPMS 308 Carbine buffer spring

Guntec GT10 3.8oz 2.5" buffer

Anderson Manufacturing 18" Barrel

Sounds a bit harsh. You'll probably want to get a heavier buffer...

[blue109]

little touchy aboutthe PSA criticism!

[crimsonfalcon07]

The thing that worries me is that if they're off-spec to the point at which an aftermarket trigger in regular use won't work, what else did they get wrong?  And I especially don't like that they KNOW that they screwed up, haven't updated the site to reflect the issues (the claim I referenced above constitutes false advertising, which is illegal), and are still selling the defective lowers.  That really turns me off of the PA-10.  I'm fine with their AR-15 stuff, and have no qualms about using the stuff that's established.  But even if you build a full PA-10 rifle with all their parts (despite their initial claims about being fully DPMS compatible outside of a few parts, which turned out to be inaccurate), who's to say there's not some other issue?  308 AR's are expensive enough that, even without the risk of injury, I still want to do everything I can to minimize the risk of a kaboom.

 

More, it's a bunch of crap to say that the customers are to blame for choosing cross-platform compatibility, when Palmetto State Armory themselves had initially claimed that the PA-10 is fully DPMS compatible.  Here's another email I received directly from PSA Customer Service:

 

DPMS Gen 1 style upper receivers will mate with our lowers and vice versa.    There are many manufacturers making these complete uppers.   

 

This is where the 308 is different from the AR15.  The individual part dimensions in the 308 platform are not the same.  CMMG uppers can bolt to our lowers, but the individual parts like the barrel and BCG will not work with our barrel and BCG.

 

The front and rear takedown pins, bolt catch, and buffer tube are unique to our lower.   We are the only source for those parts at this time.

 

The BCG and barrel use a dpms style barrel extension and receiver thread,  so a DPMS BCG will function in our upper.  But, because DPMS does not put forward assist serrations in their carriers, the forward assist function will not work​.

 

 

Thank you,

Customer Service
Palmetto State Armory
(803) 724-6950
Info@palmettostatearmory.com

 

That seems pretty clear.  DPMS Gen 1 stuff SHOULD be compatible, according to PSA.  They advertised it as such, and IIRC, originally claimed on the website it was compatible as well.  So, if anyone is to blame for thinking that it would be cross-platform compatible, it's sure not the customers.  Having been in and bought one of the very first ones (before they even released a LBK, and having been told that they had no idea when parts would be released), I can personally attest to the fact that PSA had no idea what was or was not compatible, and most of the testing was done by the customers based on incorrect reports and advertising from PSA.

 

As for "kitchen gunsmiths," I'm personally more worried about someone who didn't do his research enough to find these things out, "read" through an entire thread and then posted in it blaming the person reporting the issues (and the company's responses and general lack of knowledge about their own product) without realizing what the issues were.  Seems like one should be more concerned about their own gun if that's the level of attention to detail that we can expect.

[Donovan]

I was not even going to reply... but changed my mind. I expected better from this group, my mistake.

 

Crimson, I never singled out any one persons build... there are several, this thread just seemed like the right place.

 

I dropped in a rock river 2 stage trigger just to see, it function checks fine, I will try it out next trip out.

 

The build was not really budget minded, just happened that way. For my purpose, this will work just fine.

My main reason for the post was to show a finished build, and how it was achieved.

 

The buffer and spring combo works just fine in my Anderson 308.

 

I fired 5 rounds at 25 yards with iron sights, everything worked out fine, I'm going to measure the brass tonight, it headspaced fine, but I always check the first cases for length just as a double check. I was at a friends property, so I could only get a few rounds. Headed to the range or maybe our lease for some 400-500 yard practice.

 

As far as PSA Goes, you could have inserted Company A, B or C in there, the message would have been the same. So, stop throwing stone unless you have something to add worth reading. (So don't be a douchebag) That was just petty, I expected better from this group. This is the only forum I have ever joined, there seemed to be a more mature mentality here.

 

I'm not going to have a back in fourth about a he said she said on what they had posted on there site about comparability... you have your opinion and your experience with then, I could care less how you 'feel' or the grudge you have on there claims and business practices.

 

This post is about how i built a working rifle and how I achieved it. What I achieved proves what has been posted about the PA10 here several times is not true. Sure, not all of it is not true, but this was successful and painless build.

If anyone takes offence to my opinions I added in the process, I think nothing of it, get over it.

 

I'm here willing to share my knowledge, with you or anyone else. I could have said nothing, and people would be scared away by all the defamation thats been spread. This is a good deal out there $220 for and upper lower set!!

 

Enjoy.