As good a place as any...

[RedRiverII]

Of course we all know what we ought to do,  what makes most sense,  and then we do what we want.  As long as I accept the consequences or rewards I'm GTG.  I was toying with the idea of buying a 308.  I go to the top of the line stuff naturally.  My FFL is a main distributor for KAC and those are beauties.  I may still get one,  but not now.  I bought a top of the line 3 speed English Racer bicycle as a kid.  That's when 3 speeds were the best.  I mangled that sucker,  sand papered  the finish to add my most favorite house paint and wondered why it didn't work out so well.  I lived in a shared driveway house and couldn't make it out of the driveway without smacking in to the brick walls.  Long story short I learned the hard way.  I'm about to learn the hard way all over again,  but I'll do it on the cheap.  Well less expensive anyhow.  I just received the PSA 308 lower then I came on here for advice and reviews.   I know I know,  I already have ordered the H3 and am looking for the correct tube even before owning the upper. Armalite OOS.  I guess this is as good a place as any to ask why the big difference in cost for buffers in the 5+ ounce weight?  I see anywhere from roughly 25$ to $105.  Big difference.  I ordered two,  the 25$ one and a $40 piece.  I had already ordered extractor springs and ejector springs.  I bought the stiffer orange coil buffer spring and some extra parts to have on hand.  I may have made a major mistake or not.  One thing I learned on taking the rough road is you learn quick.  I've read most of the posts here discussing PSA,  and a couple threads more than once.  I see dwelling on the dwell time is a major theme.  Cool.  "  Don't you have anything better to do? "  No,  this is good.  I'm perfectly at home learning new stuff.  I haven't bought an upper yet and already began studying the challenges.  I can get into a 308 for $650 from PSA and tune er up,  or buy a top flight rifle and coast.  I always took the hard road,  I like it.  Looking forward to some discussion,  thank you in advance.

[Matt.Cross]

3 minutes ago, RedRiverII said:

Of course we all know what we ought to do,  what makes most sense,  and then we do what we want.  As long as I accept the consequences or rewards I'm GTG.  I was toying with the idea of buying a 308.  I go to the top of the line stuff naturally.  My FFL is a main distributor for KAC and those are beauties.  I may still get one,  but not now.  I bought a top of the line 3 speed English Racer bicycle as a kid.  That's when 3 speeds were the best.  I mangled that sucker,  sand papered  the finish to add my most favorite house paint and wondered why it didn't work out so well.  I lived in a shared driveway house and couldn't make it out of the driveway without smacking in to the brick walls.  Long story short I learned the hard way.  I'm about to learn the hard way all over again,  but I'll do it on the cheap.  Well less expensive anyhow.  I just received the PSA 308 lower then I came on here for advice and reviews.   I know I know,  I already have ordered the H3 and am looking for the correct tube even before owning the upper. Armalite OOS.  I guess this is as good a place as any to ask why the big difference in cost for buffers in the 5+ ounce weight?  I see anywhere from roughly 25$ to $105.  Big difference.  I ordered two,  the 25$ one and a $40 piece.  I had already ordered extractor springs and ejector springs.  I bought the stiffer orange coil buffer spring and some extra parts to have on hand.  I may have made a major mistake or not.  One thing I learned on taking the rough road is you learn quick.  I've read most of the posts here discussing PSA,  and a couple threads more than once.  I see dwelling on the dwell time is a major theme.  Cool.  "  Don't you have anything better to do? "  No,  this is good.  I'm perfectly at home learning new stuff.  I haven't bought an upper yet and already began studying the challenges.  I can get into a 308 for $650 from PSA and tune er up,  or buy a top flight rifle and coast.  I always took the hard road,  I like it.  Looking forward to some discussion,  thank you in advance.

You'll be in good company, I'm getting ready to document the same process in extensive detail!

[RedRiverII]

Very cool Matt.  I'll break out the camera myself soon.  What about the buffer prices?  You know something about why?

[Matt.Cross]

3 minutes ago, RedRiverII said:

Very cool Matt.  I'll break out the camera myself soon.  What about the buffer prices?  You know something about why?

Tungsten is expensive, as is the machining on more dense metals that buffers can be made of...

That's my take anyways.

[Robocop1051]

2 hours ago, RedRiverII said:

Very cool Matt.  I'll break out the camera myself soon.  What about the buffer prices?  You know something about why?

The heavier buffers can only get heavier by using more expensive metals. Currently, Tungsten is is getting about $20 a pound while steel is getting less than a $1.... and that’s just material weight. 

Machine time is greatly increased in tungsten over steel too. My average machine cost is slight over a $1 a minute. For me to chuck in a piece of steel rod and machine it to size, would be a minimum 10-15 minute job. That time would almost double with tungsten and the wear on my tools would greatly increase.

All of these costs (material weight + machine time + tool wear) has to be reflected in the price.  

I’m currently working on a way to reduce the costs of tungsten to my buyers, by reducing the amount of labor required on my end. Ordering pre-measured extrusion is one way around that.  

 

[unforgiven]

AR10 carbine kit less stock $60.00  same kit in rifle $80.00 flawless operation priceless... just my 2 mags

[RedRiverII]

I knew it wasn't just a crap shoot,  thanks for the explanations.

[RedRiverII]

Flawless operation,  priceless indeed.  

 

I was on an AD,  Destroyer tender,  and had a few friends in the machine shop.  I am still amazed with what machinists can do with bar stock.  I worked with machinists on the outside as well,  just simply amazing work.  I'd bring in old outdated parts and they would just recreate them.  I can't say enough good about the human mind and it's ability to create.  Because of my new found interests I watched some short videos on how triggers work.  The angles and flats,  the catches and releases all controlled by springs is mind boggling.  It is not terribly easy for me to get ( understand ) what you folks were explaining about the recoil system.  I'll get it soon enough, but I need to see it and repeat it several times to fully understand.  Thankfully I don't need to create these mechanisms,  I just need to comprehend established principals. I have a lot of fun work cut out for me and some pretty smart people standing by.  I'm buying an upper then I'll build a rifle.  one thing at a time.  The gas block is particularly tricky to me.  In time I'll know the correct questions.  Thank once again. 

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by RedRiverII

[unforgiven]

Aero M5 is a good value brother.

[RedRiverII]

11 hours ago, unforgiven said:

Aero M5 is a good value brother.

Referencing it to complete upper for PSA lower or complete rifle?  I went to the site and realized that's where I left off building a rifle last time.  Once I got to the gas system I went into brain overload,  too much too soon.  I have ordered form Aero before...  I like this designation M5,  it fits.

[unforgiven]

Can't compare M5 to PSA10. M5 has less issues. Just my 2 mags

[RedRiverII]

Thanks Unforgiven.  Got it.  Understand it.  Believe it.  I am catching up on a delayed urge for a 308.  I see I have an account with Aero.  Good vibes toward that company.  As much as I want to like a 9mm,  I buy 45's.  Same same 223.  All good stuff but it comes down to a personal preference.  Thanks for sharing yours.  PSA is my go to for now and I'm sure I'll move elsewhere just for the sake of ...whatever.  Behind all this discussion we center on the round.  A 30 cal bullet is the source.  I stood behind the line with 40 or so riflemen firing 30 cals,  I do enjoy the bang,  but the concussive force generated is the ticket for me.  I enjoy feeling the thunder.  

[unforgiven]

One thing about the PSA10 it will allow you to get more intimate with the rifle in understanding method of operation . In the end you will be more knowledgeable then buying one off the shelf. 😁Not everyone is that mechanical.

[RedRiverII]

Agreed.  I just received the heavier buffers and some other small parts.  Called Armalite to order the gas tube and their EA 1095 spring because my computer wouldn't complete the transaction for one reason or another.  Met a customer care guy and formed a quick relationship for information and advice.  Plenty friendly enough guy.  They are moving toward, or back to,  more in-house production.  It's horrible depending on, or at the mercy of, someone else for a completed product.  The site says no gas tubes,  carbine size.  I was able to get it,  stock online doesn't jive with stock on hand too well sometimes.  I look forward to the day,  and it's coming,  when there is more personal care given to the customer.  I understand the idea that the computers will make all business easier,  harrumph bullpoopy,  excuse me I sneezed.  I never found a computer I could ask for a favor and go actually check the parts bin.  I did also just order the PSA upper.  I was going to wait,  keep expenses down a bit... yada yada.  It's on it's way,  no delay.  I could BS all day,  worked forty years to be able to,  take care unforgiven.

[SimonSays]

RedRiverII, you’ve come to the right forum to figure out how a Modern Sporting Rifle works. This site is full on invaluable information. Years ago when I first started lurking here, I literally didn’t know that a Carbine 308 didn’t mean it was just short. I didn’t know the gas system OR the recoil system was referred to as carbine length. I didn’t know the stock housed a recoil system, let alone how it works. I was almost as bad a Feinstein with her “shoulder thinga that goes up and down”. Almost I say. After a lot of reading threads on this site, I’m starting to figure all this out. It’s been great fun and I  hope you will enjoy it as much as I have. Listen to the people here. They’ve spent over 10 years, 10’s of thousands of hours and 100’s of thousands of dollars figuring this platform out. When they say it won’t work, it won’t work. Not because of egos, but because they have already spent money on it and they know. Good luck, have fun and welcome. 

[cheap-bastidge]

with the current production PA10, you shouldn't have too many deal breaker problems. The recoil parts mismatch issues is really the only big bug a boo at the moment. everything else is annoyances. Yes, more expensive rifles may run better, but a PA10 can function. As always, with PSA your mileage may vary.

[unforgiven]

@RedRiverII more guys needed to work on there rifles than didn't from what I have seen. But the guys here have cracked the issues. I have 2 kinds of patience, little and none. I started here by modifying an AR 15 from PSA and it worked out. But I got my RRA Standard Operator off the shelf. I have assembled a couple of M5  16" and 14.5 and replaced the Aero recoil system with Armalite. What do you do before retirement? I never stop learning here.

Edited May 14, 2019 by unforgiven
Brain fart

[shooterrex]

The PA10 I bought had the rifle lower w/the fixed stock. The upper was 18" with midlength plastic handguard and a front sight. The rifle ran everything I fed it as it came from the factory.  I did change out the gas tube to a longer length. I also installed a LaRue MBT-2.  This week I installed a free float rail and low profile gas block. None of the changes I made were necessary to make the rifle run. The carbine stocked lowers seem to be where most of the problems arise.

[98Z5V]

2 hours ago, shooterrex said:

The carbine stocked lowers seem to be where most of the problems arise.

Combined with the small gas ports on the 18" midlength gas barrels, and the short gas tubes.  All that stuff played in together...   Weak recoil system is the easiest to fix athome,for most folks, though, instead of taking apart uppers and drilling gas ports to the proper size... 

[RedRiverII]

I should get the upper Wed.  That's a two day transaction.  We'll see. The lower did arrive quickly at my FFL,  on time as promised.  I assumed trouble before putting the rifle together.  I will put the recoil system together as suggested before shooting.  My receiver extension measured 7" flat.  i.e. no 1/16ths or 1/4's.  I have the orange Spingco and two buffers.  One Spikes weighs 5.6,  the other Expo 5.8 according to a kitchen scale.  Both are 3.250".  Gas tube on the way from Armalite as I said.  Hopefully Thurs I get to visit the range,  if nor Monday will be the day.  Unforgiven I was a plumber for forty years and have the MRI's to prove it.  Although I was raised to use my head and do smart stuff I opted for grunt work,  just loved the rough and tumble.  Did some serious intelligence stuff once upon a time,  loved my country when it didn't love me,  guess when?  There is something fascinating to me about mechanical devices.  The ability of energy to be transmitted across several pieces to work smoothly toward an end with no other power than my initial force is amazing.  How do minds come up with this stuff.  I watched some videos recently on how an AR-15 trigger works,  brilliant.  Thank you all for your contributions.

[unforgiven]

I'm not very bright I became a Union Sheet metal worker out of Chicago. Before that U.S. Steel so.works. Welcome home sir and Thank you for your service.

[RedRiverII]

Dangerous job at times for sure.  I'm not very bright also,  but I have my moments.  I have weighed the shipped buffer in the lower at 3.8 oz.  The spring at 11.5" which is the same length as the Sprinco orange.  Stiffer steel I imagine,  have an Armalite spring coming as well.  Here's an overlooked question on my part;  are the extractor springs troublesome or is it the extra material on the extractor edges?  I have a three hour roundtrip to my range.  That's the reason for trying to figure out all the angles before I go.  I don't want to fire three shots and need to first figure out what might be wrong.  I've done that before= no fun at all.

[Armed Eye Doc]

2 hours ago, RedRiverII said:

  My receiver extension measured 7" flat.  i.e. no 1/16ths or 1/4's.  I have the orange Spingco and two buffers.  One Spikes weighs 5.6,  the other Expo 5.8 according to a kitchen scale.  Both are 3.250".

I don't believe this will work together.  With a 7" receiver extension (AR15, DPMS based 308AR), you need a 2.5" buffer.  With the 3.25 buffer you will need the 7 5/8 receiver extension (Armalite AR10).  As in this thread (link below), your bolt will not go all the way back.  @98Z5V can you check my thinking on this?  I'm not sure if the Sprinco orange spring will change this. 

I would hate for you to waste a 3 hour trip.  The easy way to test it is to hand cycle it when you put it together.

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Armed Eye Doc

[RedRiverII]

Thanks for the head's up Armed Eye Doc

[98Z5V]

On 5/14/2019 at 6:59 AM, Armed Eye Doc said:

I don't believe this will work together.  With a 7" receiver extension (AR15, DPMS based 308AR), you need a 2.5" buffer.  With the 3.25 buffer you will need the 7 5/8 receiver extension (Armalite AR10).  As in this thread (link below), your bolt will not go all the way back.  @98Z5V can you check my thinking on this?  I'm not sure if the Sprinco orange spring will change this.

I SWEAR I posted about this last night - and it's not here. 

You are right on the money, Doc, with everything you stated.  Nailed it. 

.308ARs, collapsible receiver extensions.  Two choices for tube internal depth - First choice is the 7.000" internal - the typical, mil-spec sized AR15 Carbine receiver extension.  To run that AR15 part in a .308AR platform, you have to have (1) real no-shiit gen-u-wine DPMS LR-308 internal parts, that should come straight from DPMS.  Trust NO ONE else to get that right.  I'm only saying that for @survivalshop.  Must use a 2.500" long carbine buffer with this extension depth, and most that you'll find will be 3.8oz.  Too light.  You want 5.4oz, but that's not easy with a 2.5" length.  Best route to go is the KAK Heavy Buffer, at 5.3oz.   Now, Option (2): Combine that 5.3oz KAK buffer with the Sprinco Orange spring, and you're golden. 

This buffer:

https://www.kakindustry.com/lr308-carbine-buffer-heavy

Next receiver extension depth is 7 5/8" internal depth.  Not "almost" 7 5/8", not "kinda, but a little long..."   7.75" internal depth is TOO LONG - That's a fucked up receiver extension, right there.  That depth needs to be exact. Reason is  - You run a 3.250" long AR15 Carbine H3 buffer, that weighs 5.4oz.  The buffer spring to run is the Armalite EA-1095 spring.  Armalite combines those parts in a kit, and it's CHEAP compared to piecing it together - $60 for the extension, EA-1095 spring, 3.250" H3 buffer, castle nut and lock ring.  Armalite makes the extension (AR-10 Carbine Receiver Extension), MagPul makes the SR-25/M110 extension, @Robocop1051 makes an exact-spec extension, and VLTOR makes the A5 extension (2 flavors of it for collapsible stocks - 6 position and 7 position - another, for pistol config, though.  3 total from VLTOR).  Those are the only known, verified 7 5/8" internal-depth .308AR extensions that I know of.   Everything else is suspect, until purchased and verified by someone.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by 98Z5V