Albroswift Posted December 11, 2020 Report Share Posted December 11, 2020 https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/ghost-gun-company-raided-by-federal-agents-11607670296 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNP Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 I wonder how many of those guns were used in a crime (other than the ones created by unconstitutional laws)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armed Eye Doc Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 I wish I had gotten some of these when I had the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billymagg Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 10 hours ago, Albroswift said: https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/ghost-gun-company-raided-by-federal-agents-11607670296 oh boy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) ATF wasn't after the polymer lower kits - they were after the complete build kits, that P80 offered - because they (ATF) stated that an individual could make a complete gun "in a matter of minutes..." Apparently, the ATF has never actually BUILT a P80 Glock lower, if they think it's a "functional gun" "in a matter of minutes..." https://www.recoilweb.com/atf-raids-polymer80-164289.html ATF Raids Polymer80 Forrest Cooper December 11, 2020 To those who still read the paper, this morning may have brought a bit of surprise, as the Wall Street Journal reported the headline “Ghost Gun Company Raided by Federal Agents.” The language itself indicates what the message is intended to convey: with the key words being “raid” and “ghost gun.” While the internet simultaneously laughs at the political theater around ghost guns, and sobers from remembering the problematic track record that certain federal agencies have with conducting raids, no time is lost contemplating what this move implies. Thursday, December 10th, 2020, the ATF entered the property of Polymer80 in Nevada, seizing both documents and what we expect to be part of their inventory as evidence. If the raid doesn't raise hairs, the warrant affiliated with it does, as the build kits were to be suddenly reconsidered as serial-number-requiring firearms. By this determination, Polymer80 could face ramifications for failing to pay taxes affiliated with firearms sales, and be considered an illegal weapons manufacturer. Polymer80 manufactures and sells individual parts and kits based on the Gen 3 Glock platform. They have brought the customization of 80% receivers to the world of handguns, selling the materials and know-how surrounding modern gun smithing. Just as the build-your-own flintlock kit isn't sold as a firearm, Polymer80 does the same thing, but with a polymer lower, striker-fired handgun. Dangerous Words The article in the Wall Street Journal, however, should continue to draw the attention of any who may read it. As the author writes of ghost guns, they reveal that the nick name used by some people, is considered as a defining term by others. As 80% Receivers were not regulated as firearms, they were not identified as the specific target of the raid. Rather, they went after a builder's kit possessing the attributes of a firearm according to the warrant paperwork. The relationship between a people and their government will long entertain the imaginations of philosophers and political theorists, but it takes physical form in situations like this. Challenging the authorities has been in vogue for long enough to make a mess of stories like this. The Wall Street Journal has published a statement saying that the firearms industry should expect greater scrutiny, and for many, that simply translates to regulation. The New Normal? Pistol Braces and 80% receivers have both made a stir as products “approved” by the ATF. Following this, they quickly entered the market in force, finding themselves in the hands of millions of Americans. An item, which at one point was approved is suddenly not, with swift action to follow. After brief investigation, it turns out that a variation is the target, not the original and it is left further unclear what the expectations are for appropriate inquiry. This is only exacerbated when those asking for clarification receive regulation as their reward. In the article, it is stated that the ATF considers these build kits as firearms because they believe the buyer could assemble a pistol in minutes. Polymer80 will likely make a statement about this in the near future, in the mean time, 80% receivers are still for sale. Edited December 12, 2020 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 Relax, brothers - research first, when you hear things from the MSM... Look into it, find information, find out for yourselves... What is really going on... You'll never get the Real Deal from the MSM "reportings" - that's for sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albroswift Posted December 12, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 If you can believe the internet the ATF has started confiscation of these kits from the end users. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARTrooper Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 So what’s wrong with the kits according to the ATF? Tried reading the article but been working some third shifts and it got too wordy for my lack of sleep to comprehend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterrex Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 They are saying you can make a functional firearm in a few minutes. Probably never tried to build one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lane Posted December 13, 2020 Report Share Posted December 13, 2020 I am certainly interested in the papers that they seized. Especially so because NY's AG had already sent threatening letters to 14 businesses that make and/or sell 80% components; requesting they retain all purchase records related to NY residents. In that case; they seemed to be targeting 80% AR lowers; with no mention of the pistol components. This builder kits though; that is a head scratcher too. I presume those kits contained an unfinished lower (frame), along with the other component parts. But that's still not a functional firearm in any way. I'm not aware of any law that makes possession of attributes like a firearm illegal. Is this the same as suspending a student of having a toy gun at home; one that was briefly visible to his zoom class? Is this going to outlaw Nerf guns? Paper, or cardboard models of guns? Finger guns? To be fair; NY state has been pushing this issue with legislation trying to make 80%s illegal. My understanding is NJ has already done so. California requires they be serialized and registered. I recently read that PA has jumped on board banning anything that could become a lower I presume that must then include raw billets of aluminum, sheet metal, casting resins, among other ordinary things; Shovel AK anyone??. 10 hours ago, Albroswift said: If you can believe the internet the ATF has started confiscation of these kits from the end users. A local newspaper in upstate NY reported that someone (State Police I assumed), were seizing shipments to NY customers out of the US mail, and/or other delivery channels. I haven't tested this theory myself by ordering one; and it may only apply to specific companies (I don't imagine they are currently tracking Brownell's shipments, or anything like that). This was more than a year ago; so old news for sure... There is also reason to be skeptical, since there is no rule of law here that would technically allow it that behavior. This about an hour crap though? I have no idea where that came from. I'd certainly like to see it; and have no idea how the end result could be reliable. Crap: 80% arms advertises this in a click-baity youTube video from 2014. Of course they don't show it being done in an hour. And with aluminum in a drill press? I call BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lane Posted December 13, 2020 Report Share Posted December 13, 2020 Don't know if this is legitimate or not. A single case (anonymous source); could be confiscation from a specific target, a felon, or similarly restricted individual. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted December 14, 2020 Report Share Posted December 14, 2020 (edited) On 12/12/2020 at 3:08 PM, ARTrooper said: So what’s wrong with the kits according to the ATF? Tried reading the article but been working some third shifts and it got too wordy for my lack of sleep to comprehend These are the bad boys, right here the "Buy, Build, Shoot" Kits: https://www.polymer80.com/pistols/bbskits Everything you need to build a complete pistol, shipped straight to your house, even if you're a convicted felon. Therein lies the rub. Edited December 14, 2020 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARTrooper Posted December 14, 2020 Report Share Posted December 14, 2020 But they didn’t touch the regular 80% that were by themselves and not in a kit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted December 14, 2020 Report Share Posted December 14, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, ARTrooper said: But they didn’t touch the regular 80% that were by themselves and not in a kit? Nope, not one bit. Still completely legal, and for sale. Buy one now, brother, right from the P80 website. BATFE's BIG PROBLEM was that anyone, anywhere, can "basically" order a complete gun (that they have to work on for a minute), right to their mailbox - felons included. P80 has the "Big Bad Ban States" listed, that they won't ship to - and that's it. Complete pistol, takes a little work, ships to any Free State, no matter who you are or what you've done in the past. That's the "in a nutshell" breakdown, of the whole affair. Edited December 14, 2020 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARTrooper Posted December 14, 2020 Report Share Posted December 14, 2020 That’s so stupid because anyone could buy 80% lowers and all the other parts to make the firearms from brownells or any other online company and still get it all sent to their house. al the kits do is make it easier so someone without the experience gets everything they need without having to track it all down. I am so tired of the ATF and their bureaucratic bullsh1t. They have no accountability and make up whatever rules they want without having to actually pass a law through legislation. They are just a hand for political overreach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirstydg323 Posted December 14, 2020 Report Share Posted December 14, 2020 What no one mentioned is when this first broke there was nothing mentioned during an online search. EXCEPT One hit from a story two weeks ago. Gabby Giffords group tried to intimidate the two web hosting companies to shut down ghost guns. This is the second time that they tried to do this, funny that the story from 2017 is still live but the most recent one is gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBrien Posted December 14, 2020 Report Share Posted December 14, 2020 (edited) I can't help but think this "raid" is in some way related to the fact that the State of California (and AnyTown, etc.), as well as the State of New York have brought federal lawsuits against BATFE over "ghost guns" which are "designed to or may readily be converted" into functional weapons. For some light reading, see the PDF, below. I haven't yet downloaded the one for New York, but I suspect it's substantially similar. California_vs_ATF.pdf Edited December 14, 2020 by COBrien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Looks like they are after the build kits right now. They ain't gonna wait for the new boss, or is it same as the old boss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 15 hours ago, ARTrooper said: That’s so stupid because anyone could buy 80% lowers and all the other parts to make the firearms from brownells or any other online company and still get it all sent to their house. You are correct - it's pretty fuckin' stupid. But, it's right in line with Joe Biden's Gun Control Agenda. If you haven't read this yet - it's pretty shocking, what he's planning to do... https://joebiden.com/gunsafety/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARTrooper Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Good thing there is already enough guns in America to fight if we need to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lane Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 It is pointless and stupid. But how many more baby steps before these minor changes begin to encroach on everyone's regular business? If all the parts in one box are the concern; there are a number of others that sell packaged full kits. Though; maybe it's an SKU issue here? All the components in any way a'La carte is actually legal? It's still splitting hairs in terms of legal nonsense. Again; how long before that box of random parts from Brownell's is classified as a firearm? Is that definition of firearm is going to be fluid, that does apply to uppers or barrels down the road? It's not that much of a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lane Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 https://www.thecornellreview.org/well-regulated-polymer80-is-just-the-beginning/ Didn't see this before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBrien Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 10 hours ago, Lane said: https://www.thecornellreview.org/well-regulated-polymer80-is-just-the-beginning/ Didn't see this before... Some good stuff in there. Matter of fact, all the "Well Regulated" opinion pieces I've read (now that I've discovered it...) have lots of good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 From GAT Daily a couple days ago: https://gatdaily.com/breaking-atf-raids-polymer80/ BREAKING: ATF Raids Polymer80 By Keith Finch - December 11, 2020 Ghost-Gun Company Raided by Federal Agents The headline at The Wall Street Journal posted about two hours ago says much. Probably the most well known manufacturer of DIY 80% parts was raided by the ATF. Of course, WSJ makes a point to keep using the fearmongering buzzword “Ghost Gun” but theatric semantics aside this was a fight that was probably going to land eventually. For anyone who has been social distancing since long before 2020, “Poly80’s” are frames that can be finished with some hand work and a jig into complete frame and then install standardized firearm parts within, Glock being the most popular. 80% AR-15’s are also in circulation but since Polymers are easier to work with than aluminum and handguns are more popular than rifles, the P80 kits are the hottest product in the category. WSJ says, Federal agents on Thursday raided one of the nation’s largest manufacturers of ghost-gun parts, a sign that federal law enforcement is cracking down on kits that allow people to make weapons at home. The raid target, Nevada-based Polymer80, is suspected of illegally manufacturing and distributing firearms, failing to pay taxes, shipping guns across state lines and failing to conduct background investigations, according to an application for a search warrant unsealed Thursday after the raid took place. The probe focuses on Polymer80’s “Buy Build Shoot Kit,” which includes the parts to build a “ghost” handgun. The kit, which Polymer80 sells online, meets the definition of a firearm, ATF investigators determined according to the warrant application. That means it would have to be stamped with a serial number and couldn’t be sold to consumers who haven’t first passed a background check. The raid target, Nevada-based Polymer80, is suspected of illegally manufacturing and distributing firearms, failing to pay taxes, shipping guns across state lines and failing to conduct background investigations, according to an application for a search warrant unsealed Thursday after the raid took place. The probe focuses on Polymer80’s “Buy Build Shoot Kit,” which includes the parts to build a “ghost” handgun. The kit, which Polymer80 sells online, meets the definition of a firearm, ATF investigators determined according to the warrant application. That means it would have to be stamped with a serial number and couldn’t be sold to consumers who haven’t first passed a background check. So now, after all this time on the market, the P80 BBS kit is a firearm. Despite the fact that it isn’t, by ATF’s own rules it isn’t. It cannot be readily assembled into a firearm upon arrival, the frame has to be finished with tools by the purchaser. Building a personal firearm without serializing it is legal. Just because someone found a way to engineer this into an easy industry doesn’t make it against the law. But, here is my guess. Polymer80’s, like SB Braces, are deliberately engineered solutions that take advantage of federal laws and definitions as they stand. It isn’t the fault of the consumer or manufacturer that the law is poorly written, devices are poorly defined, or that arbitrary rules can be engineered within to deliver the product someone wants. What I find most interesting is the target of the probe. Always consider the target, just like the Honey Badger case. The Polymer80 Buy Build Shoot Kit is not the only variation on the theme the Poly80 makes. But it is the most complete, even coming with the bits needed to complete the tool work on the P80 frame to assemble. I believe it is this completeness, that everything is provided in single kit, that is being measured against the “80%” definition by the ATF to say that these are firearms. Will that hold up in court? We will see. Engineers using rules in ways the rule makers didn’t anticipate, so the rule enforcers who didn’t make the rules have to bend them and come up with creative coverages, so that the engineers who followed the rules have to change their gizmo to fit the new meaning of the old rule… Tedious. But not unexpected, this was a fight that was coming to a courtroom sooner or later. Whether it was because federally something shifted and a law got passed or the more likely scenario we are currently seeing. The ATF saying an unfinished frame without a serial number is a firearm when before it was not and they are demanding serial numbers and back taxes. We will keep you updated as we know more. Most noteworthy, no charges have been filed yet, making this almost certain a battle of definitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 I'm just glad that I have 3 P80s that were only bought as the receiver, only. Two of them shoot GREAT, and I built them all up from selecting my own parts from other places/sources. The 3rd one is a finished lower, and I've never gotten around to building the slide for it yet. But, I will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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