Plinking Pistol for the GalFriend

[shooterrex]

Lee factory crimp dies won't mess up the headspace and the bullets stay put till they are fired.

[DustBuster]

53 minutes ago, shooterrex said:

Lee factory crimp dies won't mess up the headspace and the bullets stay put till they are fired.

Yep,  I’m sold on the LeeFactory Crimp Dies so I’d do that for sure.  

@BrianK ok, so I guess with these kind of cases, an extra Expander die is needed / or it works the same as a bottle neck die which expands when the die is raised up.  Your saying at least that the bulge might need to be refined with a little sanding to the expander...

Ive learned also that these little pistol cases tend to shrink so with the shorter cases the cartridge may end up head-spacing or staying put with the extractor... 

Well, before I get requested to move this thread to reloading, I will say this.

I bought some w231 and some TiteGroup for this future gun... I see the HellCat in the National Rifleman ads, and I’ve seen the Canik online, and the Sigs.. now I need to look at the Glocks.  Damn there are too many choices.  If I get a good one, Im gonna be jealous as can be and want one of my own.  All I have is a Ruger Old Army and if there are more than 5 or 6 rounds to fire, it takes me about two minutes to reload with the conversion cylinder.  If the Courts squash down that stupid Change to the unconstitutional rewritten rule by the anti freedom Bureau, I might have to look at making my own.  Seems from web searches it is possible.  More fun that way.  Still have the Ol Dewalt router and it’s gathering dust.  Anyhow, I can see that there are lots of well armed helpful folks.  I’m a Ham Radio guy and I know one fellow ham packs a pistola, I’ll ask him next time what he shoots.  Cu later men

[BrianK]

removed

Edited January 1, 2023 by BrianK

[BrianK]

OK, I just got back after checking my Dillon made ammo and giving the dog attention. We can't come back to fix things in a post after a short time and I wanted to make sure I was accurate. Hence the removal of the previous post. 

Re: the expander, first see what your dies come with by trying them. As I wrote the RCBS was correct right out of the green box. I didn't need to do anything. Good tip on the Lee crimper. I'll give that a try too, the ammo we make can't be too good. 🙂 I've been using my RCBS dies for over 50 years and they worked so I never changed anything about the process. It's time. The Lee crimper might actually also make the "shelf" obsolete, but I'll also keep using the old RCBS dies that I have for the single stage press.

I couldn't remember a "shelf" being produced by my Dillon dies so I went to check. It's there and can be seen by the eye it's just not as pronounced. I also never turned down the expander ball on those dies. Maybe they are all designed to make the shelf? IDK. Just something to be aware of.

FWIW, 231 is a good powder so is Power Pistol. You're in the correct burn rate, but I suspect we can go as fast as red dot (using far less) and it would still work. Yup, I just did a 'net search and turned up loads for Red Dot and bullets < or= 124gr. . I suspect with light bullets it would make some great light recoil, introductory plinking loads, esp' with a full size handgun or what I'm about to discuss, a PCC.

OK, I'm going to muddy the waters a little bit and back up a whole lot. Sorry, but when someone "wants" a handgun I just have to ask what uses will it be put to. The reason for that are folks like my SIL who watches far too much TV and movies where every round fired hits the intended target showing that handguns are very easy to use. Except they aren't. They require regular practice and pro' training to learn the basics correctly doesn't hurt either. Every round fired has a lawyer attached and "gun control" should be a high priority.  DustBuster, I don't think you are someone who would forgo the training and practice but I'm forced to ask anyway. FWIW, the reason I ask... my SIL and her idiot son... She doesn't know which end of the gun the bullets come out of, and her idiot son loaded it for her and put one in the chamber on a Glock. Glock triggers are part of the safety system and one keeps ones finger off the trigger until it's on target and you're wanting it to fire (Here mom, go shoot someone by accident!). She has no clue how to unload it so I'd wager she also doesn't know about the Glock trigger. Yeah, idiot son. To my knowledge she still hasn't taken any training and it's been 2 years. I hope she had her idiot son unload it for her as I suggested.

So what uses does your girlfriend want a handgun for? Relax, we've all been there and nothing written will shock us. It's quite clear that you folks aren't ravening 2 legged animals out for blood. The more open you are the more help we can be. It could be that a handgun is precisely the best tool, or it might not be. 

If it's home defense, a perfectly valid use, today using the proper HD techniques and an anticipated LEO response once a 911 call is made I always suggest a PCC aka pistol caliber carbine. For HD anything a handgun can do a PCC can do better (except concealment), is easier to make hits with, has far less recoil, faster to learn, can take more bolt on accessories for safety and effectiveness, larger magazines, and on and on. Proper HD technique? Designate a room as the safe room (not panic room which is very different). Under the right key words spoken everyone enters the safe room where they hunker down and wait for the LEOs to clear the home after they are thrown the door keys so that they don't need to break in. There's more to it but that's it in a nutshell. No doubt more details and greater depth about safe rooms can be found online with a search if you're inclined. 

So let's back up. What uses will the firearm be put to? We know about the plinking use but is there more?

[DustBuster]

@BrianK Yeah, I agree with you on the weapon of choice for Home Defense.  Her nephew, has a small 9mm PCC which makes way more sense in a scary life and death home invasion by bad people.  If I was more worried around where I live, I’d have myself one... either buy one from a store or craft one.  I’ve bought two guns from the store before for myself and I Always get told to come back in Three Days!  It’s bullcrap,  somehow my name out there brings up a flag, but you know how many duplicate names there are out there.  I pawned a flintlock once and I think I had to wait three days to get my money!  Anyway, she is going to be buying probably a semi auto smaller pistol.  She wants it just for fun plinking but I bet that if I don’t shoot it too, it’ll never shoot more than 200 rounds in over three years.  I want her to have it for when she goes on road trips, but crossing state lines depending May complicate that... it shouldn’t but some states are not free anymore. 

Yeah, in a home invasion I would sincerely hate to have to blow my own eardrums out with my LR308 with the muzzle brake on it.  I’ve been thinking about a pistol .223 but I will wait for more plentiful times.  My bro bought an Armalite for 400 bucks new... hard to beat that price.  I probably sunk 1500 or more into my rifle.  Anyway, I go off on long tangents... These days though, self defense is not a laughing matter... That Evil that occurred in Idaho should be a wake up call for every American 

[BrianK]

Agreed.

Before counting on a AR handgun to be ear friendly try it in an enclosed space. It might not be as destructive for eardrums as a .308, but it'll make you think twice before touching it off again. I tried a 16" barrel .223 decades ago with an open window and the muzzle just this side of it and pointed at the butts 100yds away. I never told the wife what I was up to. I closed the door to the bedroom and touched it off. My ears paid a huge price and she came back and told me in no uncertain terms to "Never do that again!". Yeah, it hurt her ears all the way at the other end of our home. That's why the PCC if one can't have a suppressor on the barrel. As you write, there are states that are no longer free. A 16" PCC reduces the blast tremendously even in those. 

If she plans to carry it there are purses that are specifically made to carry full size guns if she doesn't mind a honkin' huge shoulder bag. The key is that there should be an area for only the handgun and nothing else. Not a purse, but I carry off body in a cross slung pack of moderate size (Maxpedition Fatboy) and I need to keep the EDC down to compact size with it. 

Below is a reciprocity map. As you suggested some states aren't free and at this time it's best just not to enter them with a handgun. They're fighting tooth and nail to keep their restrictions on freedom and safety for their citizens who are being held captive by the police state. 

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map

[shooterrex]

A 5.56 AR pistol is LOUD. More so than a 308 rifle. Both fired indoors w/o hearing protection hurts.

Handguns indoors are hard on the ears also.

[Magwa]

My wife carries a sig P365xl it is a winner in all categories....

[unforgiven]

Over penetration with pistol or rifle rounds in home/ apartment in close proximity to others is a real problem. A shotty with shot instead of slugs might be a better option. Just my 2 mags. 

Shooting indoors sucks in an emergic situation ear pro probably isn't a option, but protection is number one.

[98Z5V]

12 hours ago, unforgiven said:

Shooting indoors sucks in an emergic situation ear pro probably isn't a option, but protection is number one.

HUH?!!? 

[DustBuster]

2 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

HUH?!!? 

What do the military guys do in combat?  I think I may have asked this before... Out in the fields or hills or in the inside of buildings, are the eardrums of soldiers sacrificed?  I guess in a self-defense situation that comes up as a surprise  in a house, Tinitus vs Death is an easy choice.

I shot a .22mag Pistol  outside one time and my ears were ringing... My brother shot an antelope with either a .270 or a .338 off the front bumper of his truck and he had it bad for several months.

I have never tried to find out how loud my muzzle braked LR308 is, I use a high tech toilet paper spit ball technique each and every time. @Magwa I’m glad to hear that about the 365xl .  It seems like a winner so far... I still haven’t made it to the gun store.

I know pistols are louder than equivalent guns with a longer barrel.  Wonder if that is simply because the muzzle is closer to ones ears?

Edited January 4, 2023 by DustBuster

[98Z5V]

1 hour ago, DustBuster said:

I guess in a self-defense situation that comes up as a surprise  in a house, Tinitus vs Death is an easy choice.

I've got some pretty severe Tinitis, thanks, Big Army.  I have a 40%+ hearing loss in high and low tones in my right ear, and was finally issued a hearing aid for it, just mere months before retirement at 21.5 years. 

Regretfully, the hearing loss in my left ear was only 38%, and that didn't meet the 40% threashold for getting a free hearing aid from the Big Army.

Imagine that. 

Ironically, hearing loss is not listed as a "disability" for my VA paperwork.  But, those fuckers gave me 10% disability for Tinitus?  

How's that work, VA?...  

[Sisco]

5 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

I've got some pretty severe Tinitis, thanks, Big Army.  I have a 40%+ hearing loss in high and low tones in my right ear, and was finally issued a hearing aid for it, just mere months before retirement at 21.5 years. 

Regretfully, the hearing loss in my left ear was only 38%, and that didn't meet the 40% threashold for getting a free hearing aid from the Big Army.

Imagine that. 

Ironically, hearing loss is not listed as a "disability" for my VA paperwork.  But, those fuckers gave me 10% disability for Tinitus?  

How's that work, VA?...  

not to go off thread, but I will anyway. From someone who has worn hearing aids for 40 years, Sam’s Club Lucid hearing aids are excellent and compare to hearing aids costing thousands of dollars more.

i am following this thread as I am in the market for a new CC pistol, as my son fell in love with my S & W. 9mm. Thinking about a Sig  myself, but curious about Canik’s.

[unforgiven]

11 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

HUH?!!? 

I was in the drunk 🍻🍻

Edited January 4, 2023 by unforgiven

[shooterrex]

The Sig 365 has the nicest trigger for a striker fired gun I've ever shot.

[BrianK]

Dustbuster, there's a difference between noise and blast, but frankly when ones ears are in excruciating pain the difference is moot. Ear pro' can be worn, but at zero dark 30 when you're in your skivvies or less I doubt there will be time to put it on, and I've never seen ear pro for pets. Will children think to put it on? 

That's why I suggest to folks when looking for a firearm for HD that they look at a PCC. It all comes down to Boyles Law which states that if volume is doubled the pressure is halved. Let's look at that with a 9mm. Peak pressure will be 36k psi and that will be achieved, for the sake of argument, in 3". The barrel is 16" long, so at 6" it'll be 18k, and 12" 9k. There's 4 more " of barrel so it'll be under 8k psi when the barrel comes uncorked. That's pretty mild. The same thinking works for a 9mm in a handgun, except the barrel is much shorter so the pressure and noise will be more when the bullet exits. Let's use the 5.56... Peak pressure will be near 60k psi and that will be achieved maybe 12" down the barrel. In 4more inches of travel the pressure won't drop significantly so the pressure wave from 60k psi will hit the ears and produce significant noise. But the pain will be first and foremost on your mind and not the noise. 7.62 will be pretty much the same except far more gas so it'll be worse. I have a braked .308 and under tree canopy it's painful w/o hearing pro'.

In a handgun I think the .45ACP operates at 12k psi so should be fairly ear friendly as far as blast wave effects. In a PCC it should be a pussycat. If a PCC in .45 is made. That's for you to find out.

OR, do as I do with my present HD gun and keep a blast can on it. A blast can isn't hearing safe but it does remove the blast effects and that's the worst of it. When I used a 5.56 as the HD gun it wore an suppressor that handled blast and sound, but of course supersonic crack was still there. For my EDC for SD, my plan is to just suck it up. 

What does the military do? At the very least they should supply cans and QD mounts to everyone involved in CQB. But that costs $. Heck, they farm out the rifles to the lowest bidder so they won't come up with $ to save hearing. They'd rather pay out benefits SHOULD the soldiers survive their combat. Benefits don't get paid to the dead there's insurance for that. It's cold but I bet that's just the way they think. I'd be willing to bet they know precisely how much less they pay out in benefits vs buying cans.

It's not the VAs fault either. They can only do what Congress allows them to do. When I served I was told I had medical care for life. Now the scumbags in Congress allow me one app't per year and I have use of the gym and pool if I choose to drive 30 miles one way to do that. Of course Congress voted themselves the best health care possible. Why? Because they had to walk the life threatening halls of Congress where the worst they could have gotten was a paper cut. The grunts who actually put their lives on the line? Eff them! (according to Congress) Don't listen to their lying words, watch what they do. Their actions prove their lies.

OK, off my soapbox now. Rant mode off.

[dpete]

59 minutes ago, BrianK said:

 In a PCC it should be a pussycat. If a PCC in .45 is made.

It is.   https://www.classicfirearms.com/hi-point-45acp-rifle-model-4595ts-black-semi-auto-plus-p-rated/

Yes its a High Point, and yes its not good looking, but I've spoken to a few people that own them and they all have said the one they have eats anything they put in it.

[DNP]

HK has a nice one in 45. Has for a long time. The USC. 
 

 

[98Z5V]

I've got a ,45 AR,  Olympic Arms upper and CNC Guns lower, that takes grease gun mags...   Easy to shoot, recoil is a joke, and it's already subsonic when it leaves the barrel.  

[Magwa]

I have shot elk with just about every boom stick you can think of Muzzle loader 50 cal, 270, 4570,7mmSTW,7mm mag but the loudest and hurts the most is my LR 308 I once shot a elk in some fog and that shot almost laid me out it hurt so bad .I got a can after that one and have used it hunting ever since I am at about 50 % lose in both ears the right being a bit more 58% Tinnitus is 24 /7 7 days a week, now that I am a old fart I am very careful about using ear protection when I was young, I sacrificed my ears to Rock and Roll and I still play my music loud as Fuk. If you are in a band or job that has loud stuff all the time you have to use protection playing drums in front of 3 Marshall stacks is what did my ears in... not guns....

[BrianK]

For the girlfriend... This would be a pussycat and the Rival comes with a trigger that not even I would want to improve. Maybe not the best carry gun since it's in steel.

https://www.recoilweb.com/first-look-canik-sfx-rival-s-178022.html?utm_campaign=286338_Recoil newsletter 1%2F6%2F23&utm_medium=email&utm_source=DotDigital&dm_i=7C6R,64XU,3I2VPD,UKTC,1

[BrianK]

No review yet of the steel version (above), but here's one for the polymer version.

https://www.ssusa.org/content/review-canik-sfx-rival-9-mm/

[DustBuster]

@98Z5V I was thinking of your Military work when I asked that question about shooting/indoors/hearing.  Thank you for more of your sacrifice, and you too, @BrianK.  Us civilians don’t even have a clue what the soldiers went through during all of those wars.  38% is close enough in my book for more compensation.  

@Magwa It’s funny, Ive shot my 30-06 a bunch of times outdoors and most of the time hunting, I barely notice the pop.  But when sighting in with it if I don’t plug up it hurts... Might be a variety of factors making a difference.  I have yet to shoot my LR .308 while hunting and I hope if I don’t have time or foresight to plug up then I guess I will see if the adrenaline/field situation factors make it bearable for that momentary pressure to the ears.

Take care fellas...I gotta hit the road.

[BrianK]

Not hearing the shot is very common. It's called auditory exclusion which is just a $10 set of words meaning not hearing the shot. But damage still happens even if the brain tunes it out. Other things that can happen is time dilation and tunnel vision. 

[98Z5V]

8 hours ago, DustBuster said:

It’s funny, Ive shot my 30-06 a bunch of times outdoors and most of the time hunting, I barely notice the pop.  But when sighting in with it if I don’t plug up it hurts... Might be a variety of factors making a difference.  I have yet to shoot my LR .308 while hunting and I hope if I don’t have time or foresight to plug up then I guess I will see if the adrenaline/field situation factors make it bearable for that momentary pressure to the ears.

 

5 hours ago, BrianK said:

Not hearing the shot is very common. It's called auditory exclusion which is just a $10 set of words meaning not hearing the shot. But damage still happens even if the brain tunes it out. Other things that can happen is time dilation and tunnel vision. 

^^^  Exactly so. Auditory Exclusion.  The reason for it, and then the possible tunnel vision and time compression is the massive adrenaline dump and cortisol dump that hits your body. 

We were talking in another thread/subject about a bunch of related stuff, and I specifically brought this up.  Your body is amazing, in the shiit that it can do...

Edited January 7, 2023 by 98Z5V