What did do today on your loading bench !

[Steve crawford]

Monday night I knocked out 50 rounds of 45 Colt for a friend.  Tuesday I had to rebuild the latch on my work shop.  I think things should last more than 20 years without having to work on them. O Well.  If it last another 20 years I won't have to worry about it.  Received 500 LC 308 once fired brass Tuesday.  Looks like it was buried in dirt for several years before being picked up.  Man it's dirty.   I will start de-priming and tumbling them today.  Can get about 150  in my tumbler at a time.  That will be the easy part.  It's light rain off and on today so I don't have to work in the yard.  😊😊😊

[Magwa]

Have been powder testing with H4350 and my 6.5 284 Norma finally found the node last three powder charges through the Chrony had a standard deviation of 1 yes 1 so i loaded three 10 thousands off the lands sent them downrange 1/2 inch group loaded three more moved them to 15 thousands off the lands and 1/4 inch group 1 hole I am done so I loaded a box full  I have my load in under 50 rounds........ I am ready may have to renig on my last elk thread I see this gun getting one come fall...

[Albroswift]

1 hour ago, Magwa said:

of 1 yes 1 so i loaded three 10 thousands off the lands sent them downrange

That's as good as it gets brother. Gotten down in the 3-4 range before but don't even get a 1 in a 1 shot string. 

[MikedaddyH]

Scored two boxes of Berry 9mm projectiles. 250 @115gr RN and 250@124gr RN. Got to find time reload this before the next shoot. Been doing 55hours a week for the last month plus, probably will do 65+ hours this week.

[98Z5V]

15 hours ago, Magwa said:

Have been powder testing with H4350 and my 6.5 284 Norma finally found the node last three powder charges through the Chrony had a standard deviation of 1 yes 1 so i loaded three 10 thousands off the lands sent them downrange 1/2 inch group loaded three more moved them to 15 thousands off the lands and 1/4 inch group 1 hole I am done so I loaded a box full  I have my load in under 50 rounds........ I am ready may have to renig on my last elk thread I see this gun getting one come fall...

Don't load off the lands, brother - don't base it on that...   Don't waste your time doing that.  Watch this vid, and it breaks it all out, like nothing I've ever heard before.  Erik Cortina breaks it down very well. 

 

You find a node, then, with seating depth, you'll usually find another node in combinations of 0.003" increments. 

H4350 is an outstanding .260 Rem powder, so that powder working great here, seems right on the money.    I'll find my article that I can link that shows that moving from H4350 to RL-17 made exact same performances, but with a 100fps greater speed.  I'll dig that article out.  I think it was Chuck Hawks.

FWIW, my magic .260 Rem load for the 147s uses RL-22 powder...   slower than H4350 and RL-17.  But, it's fucking magic...  

Edited March 26, 2021 by 98Z5V

[Lane]

18 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

Don't waste your time doing that.

Have not finished watching the first video yet; but this is quality stuff. He's a bit long winded, but it's well worth the time. 

Found out that I already adhere to a lot of this as a matter of course. Making a dummy round is always the first thing off my press for any projectile/cartridge combo (once I'm happy with everything else). Made extra long to find out where I stand... His method was a bit different than mine beyond that, I'll keep that in mind going forward. I do these tests in a more complicated way right now. But the; "you don't need to know where the lands are"....

I don't think Magwa was saying he did need to know exactly. I thought his methodology was sound from the start.

Getting close to the end of first video. Still agree with his math and methods 100%. I have a few builds with single digit round counts for this very reason. I want to be absolutely sure I'm not making unfounded assumptions. 

Thanks for this... Been a while since I had some quality inputs. 

[98Z5V]

16 minutes ago, Lane said:

Have not finished watching the first video yet; but this is quality stuff. He's a bit long winded, but it's well worth the time. 

Found out that I already adhere to a lot of this as a matter of course. Making a dummy round is always the first thing off my press for any projectile/cartridge combo (once I'm happy with everything else). Made extra long to find out where I stand... His method was a bit different than mine beyond that, I'll keep that in mind going forward. I do these tests in a more complicated way right now. But the; "you don't need to know where the lands are"....

I don't think Magwa was saying he did need to know exactly. I thought his methodology was sound from the start.

Getting close to the end of first video. Still agree with his math and methods 100%. I have a few builds with single digit round counts for this very reason. I want to be absolutely sure I'm not making unfounded assumptions. 

Thanks for this... Been a while since I had some quality inputs. 

He's one hell of an accomplished distance shooter, and what he says makes perfect sense.  Find your lands - then get out of them 0.020" or 0.030" - and never look at lands again...  (like @Magwa did).  But, there's a pattern to follow, which means there's a science.  His science is throat erosion - which is land erosion.  Get out of the lands, find that sweet spot (seating depth node) in 0.003" increments, and never worry about the lands again. When your accuracy drops off - it's because of throat/land erosion. Sorun it out another 0.003" and 0.006", and see what shoots better in those two - one of them will.  You just found your new seating depth, as you wear out your barrel. 

All this obviously comes after finding the perfect load through powder-level evaluations.  I load all precision loads to 0.2 grains for testing, to find the best grouping load.  The only load I've ever busted that rule for (my own rule, that I put on myself) is 5.56 precision loads, with LC brass and 75gr Hornady HPBT projectiles, for use in the Mk12 guns - I further refined those to 0.1 grain ladders, for final testing - find the best, at 0.2gr increments.  Then, take that load and go 0.1gr on either side.  On those, I'm loading at mag-length, and don't really have a choice in seating depth - unless I start going shorter.  The load is high enough that going shorter on seating depth is only going to increase my chamber pressure. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by 98Z5V

[Lane]

I'm still working on it. Watching the videos slowly to make sure I don't miss anything; and digest if fully.

Same deal, I wouldn't even care about these nuances without a load work up.

Again; super helpful. These videos are an excellent guardrail to prevent unfounded tangents in load development. Much appreciated.

[Lane]

Ouch; video 2 is a re-hash? That's going to take me a bit longer. I was 100% solid with video #1.

Those were some superior measurements, and numbers presented in the first video. I always wondered about actual round count to throat erosion data. I'll take his input as a solid metric. Nothing to fret over.

 

[Lane]

Have your buddy measure the round... That's a FUNNY problem.

Your rounds, and your load, for your barrel, and that specific configuration; are for you...  At the same time; everyone can have this kind of reliability with a bit of effort.

[Lane]

Forty-five minutes. It's a long watch if you can even do it non-stop. But I 

[98Z5V]

1 hour ago, Lane said:

Ouch; video 2 is a re-hash? That's going to take me a bit longer. I was 100% solid with video #1.

Video 2 was what he put out to explain everything in Video 1- that the Slow Kids in the class were beating him up over in the YT comments... 

Those that didn't understand in Vid 1 made all SORTS of comments in his YT channel over it.  He made #2 to get the point across to them.

My thoughts - if they didn't get it the first time, then the 2nd wasn't gonna do it for them, either...  

[Magwa]

7 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

He's one hell of an accomplished distance shooter, and what he says makes perfect sense.  Find your lands - then get out of them 0.020" or 0.030" - and never look at lands again...  (like @Magwa did).  But, there's a pattern to follow, which means there's a science.  His science is throat erosion - which is land erosion.  Get out of the lands, find that sweet spot (seating depth node) in 0.003" increments, and never worry about the lands again. When your accuracy drops off - it's because of throat/land erosion. Sorun it out another 0.003" and 0.006", and see what shoots better in those two - one of them will.  You just found your new seating depth, as you wear out your barrel. 

All this obviously comes after finding the perfect load through powder-level evaluations.  I load all precision loads to 0.2 grains for testing, to find the best grouping load.  The only load I've ever busted that rule for (my own rule, that I put on myself) is 5.56 precision loads, with LC brass and 75gr Hornady HPBT projectiles, for use in the Mk12 guns - I further refined those to 0.1 grain ladders, for final testing - find the best, at 0.2gr increments.  Then, take that load and go 0.1gr on either side.  On those, I'm loading at mag-length, and don't really have a choice in seating depth - unless I start going shorter.  The load is high enough that going shorter on seating depth is only going to increase my chamber pressure. 

I agree 100% with Erik Cortina i used his method to find my powder charge started about two grains under what my max would be and loaded 1 round in .2 grain increments to my max . I then took those ten or eleven rounds and fired them through a chronograph, i did not care where they hit on the target but i did use them to roughly sight in the rifle killed two birds with one pill. 

  So after i fired each one i wrote down the speed i was looking for a flat spot where i was not gaining more velocity through 2 or 3 of the rounds but i did not hit the NODE until the last 4 rounds the last three were approaching 2900 FPS they were rd. 9. 2898  rd 10. 2899 and rd.11. 2899 I am over max in the book but i have no pressure signs at all no sticky bolt no ejector marks etc... so i knew i had found a node . So as i stated above i loaded 3 rounds at 48.5 grains of H4350 and i was going to start at 20 tho. off the lands which i determine for each different bullet i do a soft set with Hornady bullet comparator and a shell fired from my gun that i drilled out and threaded on my mini lathe so i had a starting depth to the ogive backed off 10 tho. as i have loaded many rounds ten off with good results... fired a 3 shot group and had great results so i backed off 5 more tho. fired a 3 shot group and had awesome results.

  Now i have to go fire at 300 and 700 to check my dope from my sig app and the ABS2400 and true these numbers and see if this load stays constant...but after reading everything i can find on 6.5x284 Norma there are more records held by that gun then carter has liver pills and with H4350 in that powder charge range.. so i have high hopes but the main thing here is i have kept my load count down saving barrel life as this cartridge is known for short barrel life 1300 to 1900 rounds. So the only time i will ever care about the lands is my first time with a load it is just a reference point after that it will never be the same so it does not matter.......some people do not get this method obviously 98 you do it works!

Edited March 26, 2021 by Magwa

[98Z5V]

  Hell yeah, brother!

[Lane]

I'm going back and re-watching these just to make sure I didn't miss anything. I have come up with a few questions along the way though. 

If seating depth can be used to tune any load; isn't it ideal to be closer to the lands to avoid excessive throat erosion? I don't think Erik talks about that explicitly. 

Obviously; in some situations it's ideal to get the most speed (highest powder charge that finds a node), for supersonic stability at extreme distance... Is a short seating depth of any benefit (other than mag fit) in this situation?

What causes excessive throat erosion in 6.5x284 Norma as Magwa mentioned? While it's not a foreign concept to me; I had personally assumed it was related to blow-by, from gasses escaping before the bullet hits the lands (or plugs the barrel). Or aggressive powder charges near the limits of a cartridge/powder load. Any thoughts on that matter? Is a chrome lined barrel something that would last longer? Or is that roughly an un-haggleable price you must pay for that performance?

[98Z5V]

43 minutes ago, Lane said:

What causes excessive throat erosion in 6.5x284 Norma as Magwa mentioned? While it's not a foreign concept to me; I had personally assumed it was related to blow-by, from gasses escaping before the bullet hits the lands (or plugs the barrel). Or aggressive powder charges near the limits of a cartridge/powder load. Any thoughts on that matter? Is a chrome lined barrel something that would last longer? Or is that roughly an un-haggleable price you must pay for that performance?

Pressure.  Speeds and projectile weights (the combination) primarily.  The faster something shoots, the faster it's gonna eat up a barrel.  There are some crazy loads out there in different calibers that are burning up 4k feet per second.  Think Varmint guns, and the like.  Those light little projectiles, just screamin' downrange - those barrels don't last long, until they're shot out. 

So, you hit on that, too - that (above) would obviously be an aggressive powder charge/load.  Indeed.  Light pills, hauling ass.  The same is true with heavy projectiles, when you get those moving fast - that'll wear out a barrel quick, too.  This is what we go for in long distance...  My .300 Win Mag barrel won't last a long life, that's for certain.  I worked the hell out of that load, and I've got 225gr Hornady ELD-Ms with a G1 drag of .777 moving at 2932fps.  That load HAULS THE DAMN MAIL...  That load gets me to the mile target.  I know it'll go longer than that, too, I just need to set something up and do it.  But I'll pay for it, with shorter barrel life.  That's a load that's over the max suggested stuff, but all that max suggested stuff in published books is for liability - no company that produces a Load Manual wants to be responsible for some dummy blowing themselves up- so they list it conservatively.  I've found that all my best precision loads are within 10% OVER the max listings in manuals.  It just happens that way.  I go to hit an accuracy node, until I see pressure signs before the next node.  Keep track of the notes, write everything down when testing, see pressure signs, and move back down to that last accuracy node.  Powder charge testing complete.  After that, play with seating depth and fine tune it even more, if you're not restricted by mag length. 

Chrome lined steel barrels help barrel life, when things are hauling ass.  That's why military M4s and M16s are steel, chrome lined.  5.56 .mil loads haul ass.  55gr M193 moves at 3250/3300fps.  SS109/M855,  62gr green tip is moving close to 3100fps. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by 98Z5V

[Lane]

That's kind of weird to me upon inspection. The fast pills wear out the barrel faster. But faster pills take on less external forces in flight. So the trade is almost 1:1.

Consider a 2,000 fps pill hitting a target at 600 yards; and a 4,000 fps pill hitting that same target. One gets twice the time in flight to absorb wind; and all the other offensive forces along the way... 

Just buy a dozen fresh barrels for your favorite configurations?

What about those seating depth questions? Mostly rhetorical questions... Should one just ignore the magazine (and associated length restrictions) if you want to nail that stuff with an AR build? I'm kind of thinking yes... 

[98Z5V]

42 minutes ago, Lane said:

That's kind of weird to me upon inspection. The fast pills wear out the barrel faster. But faster pills take on less external forces in flight. So the trade is almost 1:1.

Consider a 2,000 fps pill hitting a target at 600 yards; and a 4,000 fps pill hitting that same target. One gets twice the time in flight to absorb wind; and all the other offensive forces along the way... 

Just buy a dozen fresh barrels for your favorite configurations?

What about those seating depth questions? Mostly rhetorical questions... Should one just ignore the magazine (and associated length restrictions) if you want to nail that stuff with an AR build? I'm kind of thinking yes... 

You're talking external ballistics, on an internal ballistics situation.  External ballistics don't matter, with what's going on inside the gun.  Environmental is all that matters on external ballistics.

That's what I do - I'm constrained to seating depth, based on magazine internal depth/length - that sets my max loading length, no matter where the rifling lands fall.  On some, I measure mag length, determine that optimal powder/load node, and I shorten up the seating depth for better accuracy.  It works. 

Check this book out:

https://store.appliedballisticsllc.com/Applied_Ballistics_For_Long_Range_Shooting_3rd_p/0006.htm

Edited March 27, 2021 by 98Z5V

[Lane]

4 minutes ago, 98Z5V said:

45 minutes ago, Lane said:

 

You're talking external ballistics, on an internal ballistics situation.

A few minutes after I posted, I realized flight times were not right in that comparison. I didn't want to re-post to clarify. 

I think disconnecting the mag-length is a benefit. If you're shooting distance already; why do you need mag length limits? Is anyone in need of semi-auto deer or elk hunts? 

[98Z5V]

1 minute ago, Lane said:

 Is anyone in need of semi-auto deer or elk hunts? 

Mark LaRue is...

https://www.larue.com/page/larue-tactical-6-5-grendel-fde-rifle-k/

@Magwa doesn't do too bad for himself, either, hunting elk.  It's well documented here in the hunting archives.

Edited March 27, 2021 by 98Z5V

[Magwa]

6 bulls in the last 8 years is pretty good for a out of shape old Flint knapper...lol i am thinking i want to get another one with the new smoke pole.....but i am damn sure going to pick one up hill!

[MikedaddyH]

On 3/26/2021 at 10:14 PM, 98Z5V said:

You're talking external ballistics, on an internal ballistics situation.  External ballistics don't matter, with what's going on inside the gun.  Environmental is all that matters on external ballistics.

That's what I do - I'm constrained to seating depth, based on magazine internal depth/length - that sets my max loading length, no matter where the rifling lands fall.  On some, I measure mag length, determine that optimal powder/load node, and I shorten up the seating depth for better accuracy.  It works. 

Check this book out:

https://store.appliedballisticsllc.com/Applied_Ballistics_For_Long_Range_Shooting_3rd_p/0006.htm

This is interesting and makes since now ! Thanks 👍

[98Z5V]

On 12/23/2022 at 5:05 AM, MikedaddyH said:

This is interesting and makes since now ! Thanks 👍

Brother!   You got the book?!  I've read that thing 5 times, love it.  

[MikedaddyH]

Made a portable reloading base. I hope to make a few hundred rounds of 223 and 9mm . I haven't reloaded for over a year. Should be interesting. Did an inventory, wow I collected a lot of stuff.

[MikedaddyH]

Ok its been a while...

Had two rainey days !

I finally reloaded again . Did a box of 500 , 55gr fmj w/ cann projo's . I used up 3 partial bottles of powder. 

CCI BR-4 primers

CFE223 , H335 , Varget .