Accurizing the 308 ar's

[N Jensen]

Sorry, in the last bit, I did apologize. No I'm not going to change my opinion, don't tell me ant funny either. so don't get all high on the mountain on me.

I have been shooting in competitions for some 40 years, High master both XC and long range, Presidents 100 tab holder, distinguished rifleman badge holder, member of the 792 and 495 club, won the Ca state service rifle championship, Paul and White trophy at the national matches, won regional championships as well.

I probably have more experience in this game of accuracy then most, yes I have my opinion and ant going to change.

[Matt.Cross]

Sorry, in the last bit, I did apologize. No I'm not going to change my opinion, don't tell me ant funny either. so don't get all high on the mountain on me.

I have been shooting in competitions for some 40 years, High master both XC and long range, Presidents 100 tab holder, distinguished rifleman badge holder, member of the 792 and 495 club, won the Ca state service rifle championship, Paul and White trophy at the national matches, won regional championships as well.

I probably have more experience in this game of accuracy then most, yes I have my opinion and ant going to change.

 

I'm not getting "all high on the mountain" with you, I'm actually just a staff member tasked with keeping the forums a pleasant place to be. Thankfully these types of situations resolve themselves pretty quickly as a general rule.

 

Bottom line, I have no wish to change your opinion. Simply put, if you cannot express your differences of opinion in a respectful manner, it's best not to post it. Otherwise, have a great time here and carry on. Thank you.

[EasyEJL]

I'm in the middle as I can see both sides. At the extreme end of effective range for a caliber, a longer barrel would be more accurate even with the increased whip sue to the shorter barrel having a lower speed to start with. But that's only at say 1000+ yards for 308, and even most military snipers don't regularly shoot that far in action. For most shooters, at the distances they shoot at, the shorter barrel will be more accurate

[unforgiven]

In all fairness unless someone else has done what brother Jensen has with that type/length of rifle.Ya got the give the man his prop's.That would require someone to attain those scores at those distance's with a shorter barrel than that man has been able to do.Just my 2 mags.

[Rsquared]

I'm just going to chime in here. First and foremost. Short barrels are COOL! They're shorter, less wieldy, lighter.....and in general....easier to "hump" around. Now true SBR's, as we all know, have one major purpose in life. And that is....to KICK the doors in! Or.....make a major assault in CQB. That's why they were designed.

 

A 16" barrel (in my honest opinion) is not a short barrel. Shorter....maybe....but not a short barreled rifle. They have their place for infantrymen (in my mind), but that's just it. They're not for the DMR's of the platoon. And their definitely not for the snipers of the platoon (or company).

 

They have their time and place. They have their accuracy out to a couple hundred meter's (on average).

 

Can "some" have better results than "others"? Well.....of course they can. Some guys are just better natural shooters than others.

 

my personal feelings.........nothing more.

[FaRKle!]

I'm in the middle as I can see both sides. At the extreme end of effective range for a caliber, a longer barrel would be more accurate even with the increased whip sue to the shorter barrel having a lower speed to start with. But that's only at say 1000+ yards for 308, and even most military snipers don't regularly shoot that far in action. For most shooters, at the distances they shoot at, the shorter barrel will be more accurate

I'm not arguing that the longer barrel won't be more accurate at ranges where the shorter barrel's velocity isn't high enough to stabilize the round (hence why you can't shoot factory loaded 168gr SMK's out to 1000yds reliably with a 16" 1:10 barrel), however if both a longer barrel and a shorter one stabilize the round at a given range the initial trajectory is inherently more accurate with the shorter barrel (even if it's not by a huge amount). It's basic physics, and if facts won't change an opinion then nothing will.

Here's a graph from a study where they took a 26" long Shilen barrel, and then cut it down to shorter lengths recording groups at each length. Notice how the shorter barrels maintained tighter groups (excluding 13.5" because at <16" a .308 cartridge has too low of an initial muzzle velocity and tends to perform similar to 7.62x39).

Edited February 1, 2014 by FaRKle!

[98Z5V]

Sniper school that encourages you to take a hack saw and cut the barrel off for more accuracy, WTF stupid idea is that.

 

 

It was the idea - and proof - of these guys right here.  I posted this article here, originally.

 

They didn't use a hacksaw - they used a sawzall.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20080705023514/http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20080705023736/http://www.sniperschool.com/barrel-length-revisited/

[beachmaster]

Sorry, in the last bit, I did apologize. No I'm not going to change my opinion, don't tell me ant funny either. so don't get all high on the mountain on me.I have been shooting in competitions for some 40 years, High master both XC and long range, Presidents 100 tab holder, distinguished rifleman badge holder, member of the 792 and 495 club, won the Ca state service rifle championship, Paul and White trophy at the national matches, won regional championships as well.I probably have more experience in this game of accuracy then most, yes I have my opinion and ant going to change.

What unit were you in when you earned the presidents 100, and where were you stationed? Mos?

[survivalshop]

There is nothing about range in the posters question ( he hasn't posted since ? ) So if your looking to make an 308AR more accurate , that question has been answered , why beat it to death .

 

Seems like there's no question about the validity of N Jensens credentials for trigger time or match experiences , but do you know any one who tried matches with a shorter barrel ?  With what type of rifles were these matches shot ?

 

Its going to take me a bit to get to the long range, range , but I will compare a 20'HB to a 16" HB this summer & the only thing that I believe will be the difference is Velocity of the projectile @ range & that doesn't mean poor grouping .

 

I've seen that graph before.

Edited February 1, 2014 by survivalshop

[N Jensen]

Ok, the idea of this thread has been beat up pretty good, in both directions. Again, I apologize for pulling the chain so to speak.

1st time for the presidents 100 was in 1984, and several times after that, seems so long ago. I was in the USAF and worked on the U-2 at Beale AFB. After that, Predator drones at Creech AFB and now as a civilian. Matter of fact I signed the release for flight in the maintenance forms for the first air to air UAV drone against a Iraq Mig during southern watch. The drone lost and was blown out of the sky, acft had total flight time of 150 hours. All the T-shirts, jackets, flags, and other souvenir mementos for the flight was lost as well. Maybe the Iraqi's picked it and kept it.

High Power has two groups, service rifle and match rifle. One must use a service rifle M-1, M1A, M-16 A2, M-110 generally with all the NM mods done. The NRA Match rifles have better sights, more adjustments for LOP and hand stop, lighter triggers. Come in all different calibers, from 6mm to 7mm. 308 cal are not that competitive unless shooting against another 308. Barrel lengths are generally 26inch, some longer, not much shorter maybe 24 inch. All NRA HP matches require the use of iron sights, only in special matches are scopes are allowed. Service rifle class, must use the sights the rifle was designed with. People do add a hood, and old shooters add a diopter inside the hood so they can focus on the front sight. Skill with the rifle wins the rifle match, both a NM AR 15 or match rifle shoot dang good at 1 MOA out to 600yds. There is a tactical match where one can shoot scope and F-class with a scope. So there is options to compete depending on your gear.

The NM course of fire is a 500 point agg. 10 shots standing at 200yds, slow fire in 10 minutes. 10 shots RF sitting at 200 yds in 60 sec, a mag reload is required. 10 shots RF prone at 300yds, 70 sec with a mag reload req. 20 shots slow fire at 600yds time limit 20 min, one shot at a time.

I could go on with more details, but in the end. HP is not easy, it takes work. It starts at 0800 hrs and usually done around 3PM. The most one shoots is 80 rounds and it's the whole day at the range. If it's windy, 20-25 mph wind, you still shoot, it rains - you still shoot until it turns into a down poor.

I have seen about 13 M1As and a couple of AR 15 blow up on the range over the years. The Last one was a M-14 All guard shooter, blew it up on the 1,000yd line at Arnold AFB HP range the Army Guard runs on the base. He did get a 8 ring I remember.

Youngest Civilian Distinguished Rifleman was 15 years old out of AZ. I believe he is on the Army team and moved to Colorado Springs to train there. Dang good shooter.

Lots of stories. In the end, you just have to try it.

[survivalshop]

I don't think you pulled a chain , maybe enlightened some , including me . These threads some times have a mind of there own , around here <dontknow> .

 

I can see the new calibers flat out shooting the 308 ( yes , that was a pun ) I will be using a host of different bullets all in the 168 gr. weight to see what the 16" can do against the 20" with same hand loaded ammo .  

 

Barnes bullets come to mind , there ME/LE for one & I have a few other no name brands ( I don't even know who made them ) that are not known today, to try.

 

The only thing I have read of the 168 gr. bullets a long range was in respect to the lethality at lower velocities .

 

Maybe I'll find some thing no one else has Or what every one already knows , what the hell , I'm retired , I have some extra time now . <laughs>

[98Z5V]

N Jensen, the one thing I saw in this thread - and it's not a dig on you, in the least - there are options out there, and others are stating those options.  Then I see you, stating that it must be one way, one way only, and there are no other options.

 

Brother, when we stop listening, we stop learning.  If we don't learn, we don't progress.  We never get better.

 

I kinda think you are refusing to accept any other way - when there are other ways. 

 

On another note - very awesome accomplishments.  I have no idea why you haven't talked about those before, because those accomplishments are topics (very good ones) all by themselves.  Hell, MANY topics!  <thumbsup>

[Tripledeuce]

    A thread on "how" to shoot long range would be very helpfull!

    Also, "reading" mirqge and that type of thing.

    I know that "I" have spent countless hours, hundreds or rounds, and thousands of dollars trying to re=invent thee wheel, as it were.

    A little help would be greatly appreachated!

    Respectfully

    Terry

[N Jensen]

I can type a little on wind reading, but forum to use? General discussion?

[survivalshop]

Tactic's & Training  category ?

[EasyEJL]

actually, this chart just confirms what I was thinking, that up to a certain range shorter is more accurate and that going past a certain range the extra fps from the longer barrel makes a big accuracy difference

I'm not arguing that the longer barrel won't be more accurate at ranges where the shorter barrel's velocity isn't high enough to stabilize the round (hence why you can't shoot factory loaded 168gr SMK's out to 1000yds reliably with a 16" 1:10 barrel), however if both a longer barrel and a shorter one stabilize the round at a given range the initial trajectory is inherently more accurate with the shorter barrel (even if it's not by a huge amount). It's basic physics, and if facts won't change an opinion then nothing will.

Here's a graph from a study where they took a 26" long Shilen barrel, and then cut it down to shorter lengths recording groups at each length. Notice how the shorter barrels maintained tighter groups (excluding 13.5" because at <16" a .308 cartridge has too low of an initial muzzle velocity and tends to perform similar to 7.62x39).

[FaRKle!]

actually, this chart just confirms what I was thinking, that up to a certain range shorter is more accurate and that going past a certain range the extra fps from the longer barrel makes a big accuracy difference

Then we're in agreement ;)

[Lattin1]

Here's an interesting article on the topic.

 

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/daniel-zimmerman/the-truth-about-barrel-length-muzzle-velocity-and-accuracy/

[392heminut]

[Robocop1051]

Here's an interesting article on the topic.

 

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/daniel-zimmerman/the-truth-about-barrel-length-muzzle-velocity-and-accuracy/

 

 

This article has been posted about 3 or 4 times. There's another one, very similar in study, that has been posted even more.

[98Z5V]

Here's an interesting article on the topic.

 

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/daniel-zimmerman/the-truth-about-barrel-length-muzzle-velocity-and-accuracy/

 

You burned your first post to bring up an old topic - whatever works.

 

Welcome aboard - please stay away from the old topics. If you feel the need to hit the oldies, just start a new thread and link that old stuff. <thumbsup>

Edited February 17, 2015 by 98Z5V

[dprice38444]

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVjOSvRBV5i4ARc0PxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0dmRibmhwBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMV8x?p=16+inch+308+at+1000+yards+youtube&tnr=21&vid=BAA4E76276F6ED70F80FBAA4E76276F6ED70F80F&l=102&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.607996223769153201%26pid%3D15.1&sigi=11rmcf5sb&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwTXEptIOhiA&sigr=11bali372&tt=b&tit=16.5%26quot%3B+Remington+700+.308+%40+1000+yards%2C+Ms.+Surgical+Precision&sigt=122hs4i23&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3D16%2Binch%2B308%2Bat%2B1000%2Byards%2Byou%2Btube%26type%3Datt_pc_homerun_portal%26hsimp%3Dyhs-att_001%26hspart%3Datt%26ei%3DUTF-8&sigb=149opgta2&hspart=att&hsimp=yhs-att_001

[dprice38444]

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVjOSvRBV5i4ARc0PxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0dmRibmhwBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMV8x?p=16+inch+308+at+1000+yards+youtube&tnr=21&vid=BAA4E76276F6ED70F80FBAA4E76276F6ED70F80F&l=102&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.607996223769153201%26pid%3D15.1&sigi=11rmcf5sb&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwTXEptIOhiA&sigr=11bali372&tt=b&tit=16.5%26quot%3B+Remington+700+.308+%40+1000+yards%2C+Ms.+Surgical+Precision&sigt=122hs4i23&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3D16%2Binch%2B308%2Bat%2B1000%2Byards%2Byou%2Btube%26type%3Datt_pc_homerun_portal%26hsimp%3Dyhs-att_001%26hspart%3Datt%26ei%3DUTF-8&sigb=149opgta2&hspart=att&hsimp=yhs-att_001 16.5 at 1k

Edited March 24, 2015 by dprice38444

[wetncold]

My AR is for mostly fun shooting. Maybe deer and hogs. If I get serious, I go to my M1a. I know it's good out to 1,000 yards. And anything in between. Accurizing the AR... it gets a trigger, free floating handguard, good scope and mount and hours of trigger time. While my AR is very accurate, it won't keep up with my M1a. Or my bolt guns. On the subject of short barrels, I had a Remington Mohawk in 243. I don't know the exact barrel length but it was short. I have a 5 shot group that measures .01" CTC tacked on my reloading bench. I wish I had that rifle back.

[Bad Wolf]

While I know, and I'm not argueing, that an 18 and 16" barrel will bang steel at 1k yards the can defeats the purpose right? A can will add approx 50fps, more than 1' pf barrel (approx 35fps per inch). Correct? Please let me know otherwise.