Barrel length and accuracy

[survivalshop]

  I see I missed this some how  & wished I had seen it earlier  .  

 

  It never ceases to amaze me how shooters come on a 308 , AR Forum & use there experiences with a completely different platform & compare them . Its an AR , we don't use 32" barrels , not even close , nobody cares how a 32" barrel performs , because we will never install one !

  Since this is about 308 AR's ,most if not all comparisons will be between the barrels designed for them , not some telephone pole rifle .

  

    Its like posting in a 308 thread about ballistics & not saying its a .50 cal. you are talking about , on purpose  , WTF 

[Robocop1051]

Its like posting in a 308 thread about ballistics & not saying its a .50 cal. you are talking about , on purpose , WTF

Bahziiiiiiiiing

I caught that one.

[j.peace]

I missed this one too. Very happy to see the ban hammer. What a jackass. I'd like to see him do anything with that 32" boat anchor besides lay on his dick with it.

[98Z5V]

Too bad Peggy Sue didn't do his research (that was asked at the beginning of this class).  Had he hit the links, he would have found information that led him to this:

http://sniperschool.com/forum/showthread.php?1-Sniper-Rifle-Barrel-Length

 

01-13-2009, 02:46 PM 

admin Guest

Sniper Rifle Barrel Length

[survivalshop]

  Well , I guess I do not need to continue my testing between my 16" & my 20" HB's . I was going to try to prove something , but its already been proven . Oh well, I guess I will just have to test for my other reasons for testing. <thumbsup>  <laughs>  

[98Z5V]

No way, brother - keep your tests going.  You ARE the first-hand information on this, and the results so far are great!  The ammo loading is most interesting, but I'm still waiting for the distance shoot so we can see the differences, with what's already been seen in the loadings.  <thumbsup>

 

I hope this turd is still lurking, and reading.  And maybe learning.  Nah, he won't be learning anything.  He knows it all already...

[N Jensen]

The test at 920 yds using Fed match 168, most likely the bullet was tumbling through the air. If one shoots enough ammo, even a tumblin bullet will hit something.

 

Comparing powder burn rates when bullets were not even the same isn't a compparision. Shoot the same bullet, then compare it. The 168 was never designed to be supersonic at 1000yds at the veloicity that a 308 can push them.

 

Can the 168 be accurate at 1000yds, it can or could be, but under most circumstances it won't be.  The 175MK was designed to be supersonic and to replace the military 173g bullet used for sniping after the lawyers gave their blessing and follow the law of armed conflict. The basic reason to replace the 173g bullet was it was made so poorly and just didn't shoot very good. It was cheaper to buy a new bullet than it was to fix the machinery and process to make them. But the union contract to make those crap bullets goes on.

 

The fact that a shorter barrel required more elevation means the bullet was in the air longer, wind can effect it longer, one requires that range estimation has to be more exact in order to hit the target as the bullet has a higher arc and sharper down ward angle toward the target.

 

Yes one can shoot a short barrel rifle and get the job done, but does 2 inches make a difference when the target your shooting at can't even see you and your rifle. Up close around a building, I got it short is nice.

[98Z5V]

N Jensen, I was hoping you'd see this thread - but I think you stopped reading that article too soon - this was in there:

 

 

 

After realizing that the powders used by Federal (ammo I used) and Black Hills (ammo the students use) may burn at different rates, I decided to re-test my rifle with the 175 grain Black Hills Match ammunition that our students use. When using the same ammo, my rifle only needed 36 minutes of elevation in order to hit the target. Based on changing the ammo, I had a 3 1/2 minute change at 920 yards! Using consistent ammo and consistent environments, my 18 inch barrel only requires two additional minutes of elevation to engage a target 920 yards away!

 

2 minutes of change between the 26"-barreled rifles and his 18" barrel, at 920 yards, with the same ammunition (Black Hills 175gr Match).  With the difference between a 26" barrel and an 18" barrel being 2 minutes of come-up at 920 yards, what's the sense in hauling around a rifle with a 26" barrel?...

 

If you think the training or information at GPS Defense, and their sniper class, is wrong, then you might be qualified, as an F-Class competitor, to critique it.  I think you should attend it.  Worst possible scenario in the whole exercise - you might pick up an additional skill somewhere...

Edited September 9, 2014 by 98Z5V

[N Jensen]

I have been a HP shooter for the last 32 years, bull’s-eye shooting with service rifle (M1A, Garand, Ar-15) and match rifles the last 10 years or so. The last 6 years with a semi auto match rifle based on the DPMS LR action. 

 

I have shot probably 80, 000 rounds of 168 down range from 200yds to 1,000 yds with a M1A alone. Pulling targets during 1,000yd match and seeing key holing bullet holes of 168's made me use a different bullet after 800yds. A barrel length of 22inch and Ar 15 of course 20 inches. When the army team switched to the NM AR 15 and did so well with it, everyone parked the M1A;s and bought AR's. The barrel length wasn't the reason, it was because the rifle was easier to shoot.

 

Things are changing, with better bullets, optics, stocks, all help a rifle get there and more accurate. If 18 inches is better, why not go with a 16 inch barrel. I often tell people that all the long range rifle matches that I have been, I never seen anyone with a sniper rifle win the match. They just don’t have the skills in wind reading nor loading accurate ammunition.

 

My favorite quotes:

A 308 will never win a rifle match unless everyone is shooting a 308

Accuracy beats Velocity in loading ammo

A trained sniper is not going to beat a high master ranked competitor in a rifle match

A sniper rifle will not beat a target rifle, but a target rifle isn’t good or made to be a sniper rifle   

[Dane Armory]

^^^ That is how its done ! Thank you Mr Jensen !

Peggy Sue take notes , state facts and don't. Act like a Dick !

[survivalshop]

I have been a HP shooter for the last 32 years, bull’s-eye shooting with service rifle (M1A, Garand, Ar-15) and match rifles the last 10 years or so. The last 6 years with a semi auto match rifle based on the DPMS LR action. 

 

I have shot probably 80, 000 rounds of 168 down range from 200yds to 1,000 yds with a M1A alone. Pulling targets during 1,000yd match and seeing key holing bullet holes of 168's made me use a different bullet after 800yds. A barrel length of 22inch and Ar 15 of course 20 inches. When the army team switched to the NM AR 15 and did so well with it, everyone parked the M1A;s and bought AR's. The barrel length wasn't the reason, it was because the rifle was easier to shoot.

 

Things are changing, with better bullets, optics, stocks, all help a rifle get there and more accurate. If 18 inches is better, why not go with a 16 inch barrel. I often tell people that all the long range rifle matches that I have been, I never seen anyone with a sniper rifle win the match. They just don’t have the skills in wind reading nor loading accurate ammunition.

 

My favorite quotes:

A 308 will never win a rifle match unless everyone is shooting a 308

Accuracy beats Velocity in loading ammo

A trained sniper is not going to beat a high master ranked competitor in a rifle match

A sniper rifle will not beat a target rifle, but a target rifle isn’t good or made to be a sniper rifle   

 

 

  Could you elaborate on you quotes , not sure if your being sarcastic or or you believe in them .

 

  Are you saying a trained Sniper can't read the wind ?

 

  I'm sure Snipers use Milspec pre-loaded ammo  , supplied by Uncle Sam . I don't think any of the ones I have met , have ever loaded there own ammo for combat.

 

  Have you ever seen any one use a 16" bbl. at a match , in your experiences ?

 

  Your long range shooting experience is quite extensive  & I have a lot to learn about shooting that far & would like to , but no range with that kind of distance near me & my old eyes need glass . I have shot a lot with open sights & the last couple of years ,my eyes seem to be going to the dark side .  <laughs>

[Matt.Cross]

I think he was referring to shooters with sniper rifles, rather than trained snipers. Just my take... :)

[blue109]

what about shooters with regular rifles, placed into a sweet looking sniper chassis? does that help at all?

[Gray05]

Intro:

I always love these arguments/discussions. Very interesting to see how things pan out. This time, I want to just jump in late as I am and give 2 cents.

 

I'm not a world class shooter or reloader. I'm just a person with a relatively short lifetime of moderate shooting experience. And some convenient associations.

 

About 15 years ago my dad got into palma shooting. He had a friend at work that is or was an olympic level palma shooter. My dad just happens to be an extremely experienced and capable shooter. Even at 60 years old with weakening eye sight he can shoot extremely well. With little to no regular practice at this point in his life.

 

While he was getting into palma, I went to a handful of matches and shot a "space gun" (tricked out AR) in F class. 

 

I see palma and F class tossed around here a lot. I'm no expert but I have some input. However, limited that input is.

 

What length is good for:

The primary benefit extra barrel length lends is velocity. We all know this. We also all know that if a bullet goes from supersonic to subsonic while in flight, it seriously degrades long range accuracy.

 

Excluding that minimum velocity concern, barrel length should have no impact on accuracy.

 

Specific to palma, an extra benefit of a long barrel is the distance between your two sights. When bound into an uncomfortable position shooting a target 1000 yards away with iron sights, extra sight radius matters. Especially when the gun and ammo you are using are so precise that human ability is by far the limiting factor. 

 

F class and palma - A longer barrel gives you more velocity even while shooting a less than hot load. Everybody has their preferences and choices. However, it is easy to see how as long as your projectile stays supersonic at your given range you want it at the slower end of things. You probably wouldn't want to be shooting a high pressure round. A long barrel is going to give you more wiggle room on what powder load you shoot. You can conceivably go lower on pressure if need be and still maintain the needed velocity.

 

What it doesn't help with:

Consistency. As your projectile is moving down the barrel the barrel is moving. On a lower quality barrel/gun, the projectile is going to leave the barrel at a different point in that barrel's movement each shot. Ideally, your barrel moves the same way every shot and the projectile leaves the barrel at the exact same point in movement each time. A long barrel, if anything, would be a problem here. That movement would only be exaggerated more as the barrel gets longer.

 

I'm a human:

I don't know it all. There's way more I don't know than what I do know. I'm receptive to correction. I'm receptive to better explanations.The point of this forum isn't division. We should all be learning from each other.

[Matt.Cross]

Intro:

I always love these arguments/discussions. Very interesting to see how things pan out. This time, I want to just jump in late as I am and give 2 cents.

I'm not a world class shooter or reloader. I'm just a person with a relatively short lifetime of moderate shooting experience. And some convenient associations.

About 15 years ago my dad got into palma shooting. He had a friend at work that is or was an olympic level palma shooter. My dad just happens to be an extremely experienced and capable shooter. Even at 60 years old with weakening eye sight he can shoot extremely well. With little to no regular practice at this point in his life.

While he was getting into palma, I went to a handful of matches and shot a "space gun" (tricked out AR) in F class.

I see palma and F class tossed around here a lot. I'm no expert but I have some input. However, limited that input is.

What length is good for:

The primary benefit extra barrel length lends is velocity. We all know this. We also all know that if a bullet goes from supersonic to subsonic while in flight, it seriously degrades long range accuracy.

Excluding that minimum velocity concern, barrel length should have no impact on accuracy.

Specific to palma, an extra benefit of a long barrel is the distance between your two sights. When bound into an uncomfortable position shooting a target 1000 yards away with iron sights, extra sight radius matters. Especially when the gun and ammo you are using are so precise that human ability is by far the limiting factor.

F class and palma - A longer barrel gives you more velocity even while shooting a less than hot load. Everybody has their preferences and choices. However, it is easy to see how as long as your projectile stays supersonic at your given range you want it at the slower end of things. You probably wouldn't want to be shooting a high pressure round. A long barrel is going to give you more wiggle room on what powder load you shoot. You can conceivably go lower on pressure if need be and still maintain the needed velocity.

What it doesn't help with:

Consistency. As your projectile is moving down the barrel the barrel is moving. On a lower quality barrel/gun, the projectile is going to leave the barrel at a different point in that barrel's movement each shot. Ideally, your barrel moves the same way every shot and the projectile leaves the barrel at the exact same point in movement each time. A long barrel, if anything, would be a problem here. That movement would only be exaggerated more as the barrel gets longer.

I'm a human:

I don't know it all. There's way more I don't know than what I do know. I'm receptive to correction. I'm receptive to better explanations.The point of this forum isn't division. We should all be learning from each other.

Great post brother. Clear, concise, factual, and with opinions deferentially stated. Hope to see more of this kind of content from newcomers and old hands alike.

[unforgiven]

Well said brother Gray. <thumbsup>

[N Jensen]

Can a 308 win a match in todays 6mm and 6.5 cal rifles, and the answer is no. Palma matches, everyone has to shoot a 308 and in some matches everyone must use the 155g bullet.

 

Can a sniper rifle out shoot a target rifle, no the target rifle has hand stops, adj but plates and cheek for a good stock weld, are generaly heavy rifles long barrels. Sniper rifle usualy doesn't have many adjustments. Both are made to high standards but the target rifle has ammo custom loaded for it than out of the box 308. But I would not bring my palma rifle to a gun fight or hunting.

 

Can a sniper read wind, yes but not as good as someone who has HM card and been shooting palma.  The sniper most likely will never put in the time to become as good wind reader as HP guy in long range shooting. A full size silhouette is much larger than a ten ring thats on a decimal target. I’m assuming that a hit anywhere on a silhouette is a counter while in HP getting all 20 scored in the ten ring or better is the only way to win the match, just hitting black ant going to cut it.

 

Several years ago, on the last day of the shot show in Vegas a nice guy with a 3,500 dollar sniper rifle Night Force scope came out to the 1,000yd match. He just wanted to shoot, which is fine. I was looking at his rifle and he told me all about it. I pointed to my M-70 palma rifle, 30 inch barrel and iron sights. I told him that my gun was going to beat his gun hands down. We shot, he left without saying anything, never asked one question on how an iron sighted rifle could out shoot his 3,500 dollar gun.

 

Is there a sniper out there can read wind and shoot better than a HM in long range, maybe I just never met him.  

[Matt.Cross]

Several years ago, on the last day of the shot show in Vegas a nice guy with a 3,500 dollar sniper rifle Night Force scope came out to the 1,000yd match. He just wanted to shoot, which is fine. I was looking at his rifle and he told me all about it. I pointed to my M-70 palma rifle, 30 inch barrel and iron sights. I told him that my gun was going to beat his gun hands down. We shot, he left without saying anything, never asked one question on how an iron sighted rifle could out shoot his 3,500 dollar gun.

To be honest, I wouldn't have had any questions for you either. What did he gain by knowing your rifle would outshoot his?

[.308LiteHunter]

I thought there was a guy on this forum that shot 2" groups at 800 yards. Let's just ask what length barrel he shoots and call it good. :)

[98Z5V]

My favorite quotes:

A 308 will never win a rifle match unless everyone is shooting a 308 - True, because the newer calibers out there are better than .308 Winchester.

Accuracy beats Velocity in loading ammo - VERY True. 

A trained sniper is not going to beat a high master ranked competitor in a rifle match - Likewise, a high master ranked competitor would probably make a shitty sniper.  Because it's a hell of alot more than making an accurate shot.  There's much more involved.

A sniper rifle will not beat a target rifle, but a target rifle isn’t good or made to be a sniper rifle   - Again, very true.  One is highly accurate, one needs to be very accurate and have the capability to withstand having the $hit beat out of it - and still be very accurate.

 

I'm glad you responded, N Jensen.  Out of all the F-Class people here, you're honestly the only one that has lasted, and isn't a complete ass.  I'm honestly glad you're here, no kidding.

 

I think survivalshop said it best, still. 

 

It never ceases to amaze me how shooters come on a 308 , AR Forum & use there experiences with a completely different platform & compare them . Its an AR , we don't use 32" barrels , not even close , nobody cares how a 32" barrel performs , because we will never install one !

  Since this is about 308 AR's ,most if not all comparisons will be between the barrels designed for them , not some telephone pole rifle .

  

    Its like posting in a 308 thread about ballistics & not saying its a .50 cal. you are talking about , on purpose  , WTF

[survivalshop]

  I too thank you, for sharing your experience here & as 98 put it not being a a$$ about , IMO , honest questions .There is no comparison between the platforms , but the nut behind the trigger could & does make a difference.

  Have you ever witnessed a snipers training ? If not , you may be surprised on how they practice shooting , making little one hole groups is part of it & they ( the ones I have met ) compete against each other on a daily basis & its not all about Silhouette targets. Of course not at your level of competition .

 

  As far as the guy with the high dollar rifle kit , just how many times do you think he shot at that range ? To shoot that far with iron sights , no mattel how long of a sight radius it has , is a great accomplishment & my eyes hurt thinking about squinting that long .  <laughs>

  There is also a growing crowd long range hunters out there & some of there rifles are truly impressive at longer ranges , but it still takes a human to put all the equipment together to make any long range shots .

[EasyEJL]

my wife was having a conversation with some of the security guards at work about guns, and someone walking past joined in the conversation. He started on with the blah blah about how "where he used to live" he went to a range with a 3000yd range, and was shooting plates there, and wanted to know where one like that was in florida.....

[Sisco]

Fact is, you want to shoot exclusively 1,000 yards for accuracy, don't get a 308 AR. There are better choices in caliber AND platform. Can it be done? Yes but not as well as the better choices. We are talking apples versus oranges. A better discussion would be what is the best 308 AR at 800-1000 yards. Then we would be all on the same page.

[survivalshop]

Fact is, you want to shoot exclusively 1,000 yards for accuracy, don't get a 308 AR. There are better choices in caliber AND platform. Can it be done? Yes but not as well as the better choices. We are talking apples versus oranges. A better discussion would be what is the best 308 AR at 800-1000 yards. Then we would be all on the same page.

  That's pretty much is what was meant in the beginning , it just got out of hand or should I say out of the 308AR realm , once or twice , well , maybe three times . <lmao>

 

  The title of this section is " Accurizing the 308AR " <thumbsup>

Edited September 10, 2014 by survivalshop

[StainTrain]

Can a sniper read wind, yes but not as good as someone who has HM card and been shooting palma.  The sniper most likely will never put in the time to become as good wind reader as HP guy in long range shooting. A full size silhouette is much larger than a ten ring thats on a decimal target. I’m assuming that a hit anywhere on a silhouette is a counter while in HP getting all 20 scored in the ten ring or better is the only way to win the match, just hitting black ant going to cut it.

 

Several years ago, on the last day of the shot show in Vegas a nice guy with a 3,500 dollar sniper rifle Night Force scope came out to the 1,000yd match. He just wanted to shoot, which is fine. I was looking at his rifle and he told me all about it. I pointed to my M-70 palma rifle, 30 inch barrel and iron sights. I told him that my gun was going to beat his gun hands down. We shot, he left without saying anything, never asked one question on how an iron sighted rifle could out shoot his 3,500 dollar gun.

 

Is there a sniper out there can read wind and shoot better than a HM in long range, maybe I just never met him.  

Thanks for your input.  As stated before this is apples and oranges, and I want to expand on SS's and Tom's posts.

 

Competition:

You see very few active Snipers participate in F-TR or any other BR style competition.  To rebut your statement about never seeing a Sniper win an F Class Competition, there are tactical rifle competitions out there that I have yet to see an F-Class shooter win.  I do appreciate the level of precision that goes into your craft, but I have never met a Sniper (Military or LEO) who stated the reason they signed up for the training was to do long range shooting. These guys are precise (enough) and if you go to ASC or Mammoth you will appreciate just how precise they are considering the obstacle (loopholes) they have to negotiate to make their shot.  Most snipers compete to get better at engaging targets while under physical stress, environmental and time limits....not to get better at shooting targets.  Very few targets (living or in TRC) are the size of a full silhouette.   

 

Wind:

I have no doubt there are some great wind readers out there in your shooting community.  Snipers often read wind from a hide using a variety of things, none of which include range flags or any meaningful use of a kestrel.  Again, apples and oranges from F-Class wind callers.  

 

Barrel Length:

Most snipers are concerned with portability and concealability.  The 16, 18, and 20  inch barrels (depending on barrel maker) are plenty accurate and even though some of the bullets they are firing are hit their target at sub-sonic speeds, they are still very lethal  Remember the 230gr .45 is sub-sonic at the muzzle....  

 

The Semi-Auto platforms (MK11, OBR, JP, REPR,) used by .mil, .gov, and numerous LEOs, have proven themselves in a variety of venues.  They may not be not Palma Comp worthy, but for their size and robustness, they are phenomenal weapons and have excellent track record.

Edited September 11, 2014 by StainTrain