planeflyer21 Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 ... and maybe long term a 300blk (fornicate you instigators!) <laughs> I was thinking with that SIG brace for .300 BLK and the 12" or so barrel. :yup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolndie7 Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) My buddy just finished a 7.5" pistol build, put it on an 80% lower with no markings at all. Ive read its a good idea to atleast machine "pistol only" or something similar on the lower to show it never lived as a "rifle". Any truth to that?? Edited September 10, 2014 by Toolndie7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robocop1051 Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 While not req'd in some states... There are lots of things you could do to make your life easier... just in case. 1. Engrave "Pistol" 2. Engrave a personal identification number (like your SSN or DL#. Even your name would be better than "blank") Why leave it up to an argument about who's right or wrong? Especially if you don't have the authority to enforce your side of the argument... I hate no-nothing LE that would rather the courts figure it out than learn about it themselves. Keeping a copy of your state's 80% laws helps too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
survivalshop Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 Whats on your SBR ,Title II form or application , did it have Serial Number, Caliber or Barrel length on the application ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 Both mine and Josh's builds come out to 26.5" with 10.5" barrels and the Guntech pistol buffer tube (same length as the KAK tube). That is measuring from the end of the buffer tube to the muzzle with no muzzle device on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magwa Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 man this all needs to be written down in a format that is easy to understand and Pinned "how to build a Pistol" what and how .... I am confused .... but then I stay that way.... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) Once an extension tube is installed on the lower, it becomes a rifle or pistol (dependent on which extension tube is installed) and if it's sold in that state, the record books need to log them as such. Not true. Once it's barreled, it's determined. You might be talking about dealer $hit here, and what you have to do as a dealer to sell a lower. That's not the case, with us builders. Not at all. You're confusing what you need to do to sell a lower, not what we need to do to buy them. If someone buys a stripped lower from you, as a dealer, it must be recorded as "Other" on the form filled out in your store. Must. That change went into effect in 2008. Edited September 11, 2014 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) Montana, here are the two threads I was talking about in the PM - the LAW Tactical folding stock adaptor - The second one puts you at the end of the thread - just scroll up. Edited September 11, 2014 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) Tom is correct about the lowers and the barreling. Edited September 11, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) Tom is correct about the lowers and the barreling. Correct, and I'm talking from the manufacturer/retail standpoint. :D I'm completely aware that the majority here are DIY builders and I would rather be selling stripped lowers to you folk than have to deal with your custom builds. <laughs> <lmao> Edited September 11, 2014 by shibiwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) Correct, and I'm talking from the manufacturer/retail standpoint. :D I'm completely aware that the majority here are DIY builders and I would rather be selling stripped lowers to you folk than have to deal with your custom builds. <laughs> <lmao> Your standpoint, and a buyer's standpoint, are two completely different things, brother. Completely. You're saying something has to be transfered as a rifle or pistol based on what gets stuck in it's butt. Not the case. Maybe for you, depending on what you stick in it's butt - but the buyer doesn't need anything stuck in the butt. They just need a lower, so they can move on. That transfers as "Other," and it definitely isn't a pistol or rifle on a 4473. It's just a lower, and it's "neither" at that point. Don't confuse people with the steps that you need to make, as a retailer - when most of the people here just need a stripped lower. If you screw a pistol buffer into a lower in the shop, and someone comes in and says "I just want that sweet billet lower!" ...does that mean that since you inserted a pistol receiver extension into that lower, that you need to transfer it as a pistol? Nope. It's never been barreled. It's never been "built," until it's been barreled. That stripped lower must transfer as "Other" on the 4473. Let's say you build a complete rifle, with a MagPul PRS on it, rifle receiver extension, 18" barrel. You have that built rifle on the wall in your shop, on a Mega ambi billet lower. Mega transferred that to you as a stripped lower, and records prove it. Dude walks in off the street and says, "I need a Mega ambi billet stripped lower!" You tell him, "Man, I'm FRESH OUT! Sold the last one ten minutes ago. Only one I have is on that rifle on the wall. Gonna be 10 weeks before I get another shipment." Dude says, "I don't need a whole rifle, just THAT lower, man! I'll pay you $200 over the MSRP of THAT LOWER, just so I can complete my build!" What do you do, FFL? Shipped to you as a stripped lower, on transfer documents. You assembled it and it hung on your wall, as a display - but it's never transferred again. Do you rip it down to the stripped lower and transfer it as "Other?" Do you make the guy buy it with the rifle receiver extension in it, and transfer it as "Rifle?..." I already know the answer to this one, Shib. It IS a trick question. Edited September 11, 2014 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) I shouldn't have added to the confusion. :D I already know the answer to this one, Shib. It IS a trick question. As soon as any receiver is assembled, I am REQUIRED to log out the receiver (i.e. "other") and register it back in the books as whatever it's built as, and there's no turning back at that point, even if I strip everything off the lower, it remains registered as a rifle or pistol or SBR or whatever. That's the reason I keep almost all of my lowers in their unassembled form, and only assemble our shop demo units for display. That way, they remain as "other" until a) it gets assembled into a firearm, or B) it gets sold as a stripped "other" lower. Edited September 11, 2014 by shibiwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted September 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 is this for any FFL or is it because of SOT? if you engrave a stripped lower for SBR, is it still other or does it become a rifle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) is this for any FFL or is it because of SOT? if you engrave a stripped lower for SBR, is it still other or does it become a rifle? The above applies to a class 07 FFL (i.e. manufaturer). The act of assembling a stripped lower to a completed lower is considered "manufacturing" by the ATF, regardless of who made the stripped lower. BTW, stripped lowers are always shipped/sold as "other" from manufacturer to FFL. For an SBR/NFA item, the lower needs to be engraved with the name of the trust/individual if you go the Form 1 route. If you're going with a Form 4 and buying a pre-made/pre-registered SBR (stripped or complete), the ATF requires the manufacturer to put the manufacturer's name/city on the lower and enter it in the books as an SBR (i.e. Form 2). No other engraving is required. Edited September 11, 2014 by shibiwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 For an SBR/NFA item, the lower needs to be engraved with the name of the trust/individual if you go the Form 1 route. If you're going with a Form 4 and buying a pre-made/pre-registered SBR (stripped or complete), the ATF requires the manufacturer to put the manufacturer's name/city on the lower and enter it in the books as an SBR (i.e. Form 2). No other engraving is required. However, comma, pause for effect... if you, as a manufacturer, engrave a guy's stripped lower before sale, and he's just purchasing a stripped lower from you, then you haven't manufactured anything. You just engraved a stripped lower before you sold it to the guy. On your part, as a dealer/manufacturer, that engraved, stripped lower still transfers to the buyer as "Other" on the 4473. Ident Marking Services and Orion Engraving don't manufacture SBRs by engraving them - they just engrave lowers to the LEGAL BATFE requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainTrain Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) You're saying something has to be transfered as a rifle or pistol based on what gets stuck in it's butt. Not the case. Maybe for you, depending on what you stick in it's butt - but the buyer doesn't need anything stuck in the butt. Am I the only one reading this??? Edited September 11, 2014 by StainTrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 I intended it that way... <lmao> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) However, comma, pause for effect... if you, as a manufacturer, engrave a guy's stripped lower before sale, and he's just purchasing a stripped lower from you, then you haven't manufactured anything. You just engraved a stripped lower before you sold it to the guy. On your part, as a dealer/manufacturer, that engraved, stripped lower still transfers to the buyer as "Other" on the 4473. Ident Marking Services and Orion Engraving don't manufacture SBRs by engraving them - they just engrave lowers to the LEGAL BATFE requirement. Adding engraving technically falls under gunsmithing. :D If someone sends a lower (or any firearm) to me to get engraved, I can send it directly back to the owner after the work is done and not need to deal with the 4473. I could also "sign out" the stripped lower and sign it back in as anything else if I choose to, even if I don't really do any work on it. Yes, I can magically turn an "other" into anything else!! <lmao> <laughs> Bottom line is - why does the ATF have to make this so complicated. :D Edited September 11, 2014 by shibiwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Adding engraving technically falls under gunsmithing. :D But it's not "manufacturing" in the eyes of the BATFE. Engraving is just engraving, and as long as it's to the legal limit, you can call it "gunsmithing" or "area beautification" or "lawn maintenance...." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue109 Posted September 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Am I the only one reading this??? right? I meant to, then got distracted. missed the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 I already know the answer to this one, Shib. It IS a trick question. I shouldn't have added to the confusion. :D As soon as any receiver is assembled, I am REQUIRED to log out the receiver (i.e. "other") and register it back in the books as whatever it's built as, and there's no turning back at that point, even if I strip everything off the lower, it remains registered as a rifle or pistol or SBR or whatever. That's the reason I keep almost all of my lowers in their unassembled form, and only assemble our shop demo units for display. That way, they remain as "other" until a) it gets assembled into a firearm, or B) it gets sold as a stripped "other" lower. Adding engraving technically falls under gunsmithing. :D If someone sends a lower (or any firearm) to me to get engraved, I can send it directly back to the owner after the work is done and not need to deal with the 4473. I could also "sign out" the stripped lower and sign it back in as anything else if I choose to, even if I don't really do any work on it. Yes, I can magically turn an "other" into anything else!! <lmao> <laughs> Bottom line is - why does the ATF have to make this so complicated. :D You answered my question with both your answers. Told you up front that it was a trick question. Doesn't matter what you log anything into your inventory as. Doesn't matter. Matters what it's transferred to you as. Matters what you transfer it out as. Only then, if things differ - transfer in and transfer out - does it matter what your internal logs are. You're the FFL here, why do I have to drag info out of you? Why are you confusing the Gen Pop, here? I shouldn't have added to the confusion. :D Then why did you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Then why did you? I detracted from blue's original thread. Isn't that SOP around these parts? <laughs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 I detracted from blue's original thread. Isn't that SOP around these parts? <laughs> Well, yes....but so is giving you grief about it! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibiwan Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Well, yes....but so is giving you grief about it! LOL Touché! <lmao> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microgunner Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Bottom line is - why does the ATF have to make this so complicated. :D To justify their existance. If it became simple layoffs would follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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