No More Seafood

[Armed Eye Doc]

Short of some made-for-TV catastrophe, I don't see any way to revert to smaller farms as the rule instead of the exception.  40 years ago, It was difficult to make a living farming.  I would think the family farm would be near impossible to achieve these days.  Plus, how many young people these days would want to work as hard as is necessary to make a farm run?  I heard recently that the average age of farmers was around, or slightly over, 60 y/o.

[jtallen83]

My little brother raises a few pigs on the dirt and has about 14 acres of organic vegetables. This and his Naval reserves check keeps him afloat. If he ever gets around to raising a family though he will have to make some adjustments, he doesn't have any spare time to work a second job!

[MikedaddyH]

38 minutes ago, Sisco said:

Doc, that is what dairy farms should be still.  Sketch, the problem is not dairy farms. The problem is CAFOs (Concentrated Agricultural Feeding Operations) That is where they jam 5000-7000 cows into a single farm where they never see the light of day. The amount of manure pumping out of them is astronomical. One CAFO for 25,000 pigs they want to put  near me is going to produce 10 million gallons of pig manure a year. Now manure can be spread on fields as fertilizer, but the standard figure is one cow produces enough manure to fertilize 2.5 acres. Which means each Dairy CAFO needs 15,000 to 20,000 acres to spread it on. In the Fox river basin of Wisconsin alone there are 25 Dairy CAFOs supporting 140,000 cows. There is not 250,000-400,000 available farm acres to spread it. So the extra gets runoff and is befouling the Fox River Watershed. Same thing is causing the Lake Erie Toxic algae bloom. The Sandusky river in Ohio has 50+ CAFO's in it's watershed. What happens is that the excess manure eventually contaminates the groundwater as well and befouls all the wells in the area. Which cuts into available drinkable water, which causes shortages, hence the permits. I am not against CAFO's per se, but if you have read my posts you know how committed I am to the Great Lakes and unfortunately all this stuff ends up in them in the Midwest. There are a lot of smart people trying to figure out solutions. But in the next ten years I think we will be seeing a real shortage of clean water in a lot of the country. This is not a liberal/conservative issue. It is an issue of whether we can afford to be spoil our water and all the health issues it brings with it. A move back to smaller family farms would solve a some of the issue, but I kinda doubt that will ever happen. I sit on two different Advisory Committees that are dealing with this issue and it is a tough one. Wisconsin wants to encourage agriculture, but we need good water as well.

I am not going to disagree with the CAFO's but the numbers are skewd high. Dairy farms have 600 to 800 in barns the larger ones could have 2000. They spread them out at several locations and milk cows on location then transport the unprocessed milk to a dairy which sanitize,pasteurizes and bottles the milk. The cows which are not producing milk are in the fields. This is a little different then what happens to pigs and chicken.

I DONT know what is going on with idiots running WA state. I was raised one or two  river valley's south of Sketch and the dairy farm had two main cattle barns holding 800 to 900 cows each at that location. They also had to other farmers with large barns which and milking operations. Two tanker trucks and a bottling plant which I worked in. Disease and sanitation have always been a major concern but the legalize is BS.

[Sisco]

I can only speak for Wisconsin and Ohio, as they are the only states I have studied. 800 should not be an issue or much of one. The CAFO issue here has only arisen since the 1990's so it is pretty recent. It is not a question of getting rid of them. It is a question of finding out what to do with the excess manure. Fact is here we are talking those numbers of cows and pigs in these operations.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Sisco

[planeflyer21]

1 hour ago, Armed Eye Doc said:

Short of some made-for-TV catastrophe, I don't see any way to revert to smaller farms as the rule instead of the exception.  40 years ago, It was difficult to make a living farming.  I would think the family farm would be near impossible to achieve these days.  Plus, how many young people these days would want to work as hard as is necessary to make a farm run?  I heard recently that the average age of farmers was around, or slightly over, 60 y/o.

Maybe not "farms" but I'm seeing something akin to "Victory Gardens" everywhere.  People growing what they are able to grow and either selling the rest or bartering for what they can't grow.

Go check out the farmers' markets in your nearest metro area.  Pretty impressive things happening.

[Sisco]

15 minutes ago, planeflyer21 said:

Maybe not "farms" but I'm seeing something akin to "Victory Gardens" everywhere.  People growing what they are able to grow and either selling the rest or bartering for what they can't grow.

Go check out the farmers' markets in your nearest metro area.  Pretty impressive things happening.

Amen on that. There is a lot of that happening around the country. It could change the way we buy vegetables and seafood, and improve the freshness and quality of each.

If I find the right situation, I might open an aquaculture facility, as I mentioned above.

Aquaculture and aquaponics is the future. Right now China gets 75% of their Seafood from Aquaculture, but you would not want to see the level of sanitation at those facilities. They are working out a system where they raise up to five different species together with one species eating another's feces as a principal food source. Stay away from Chinese raised fish.

[planeflyer21]

/\/\/\/\ No Doubt!  I saw a report on Chinese tilapia.  With the water they were being bred in, they may as well have been catfish in a septic tank.

[Sisco]

1 minute ago, planeflyer21 said:

/\/\/\/\ No Doubt!  I saw a report on Chinese tilapia.  With the water they were being bred in, they may as well have been catfish in a septic tank.

To go off thread a bit, Try these numbers on for size: China gets 75% of their seafood from domestic aquaculture, yet China still accounts for harvesting over half the Seafood out of the oceans (55%). And that is only 25% of the seafood they eat! China has over 400,000 ocean going fishing vessels! And no one regulates what they take from the worlds oceans. I doubt they care whether it is irradiated by Fukashima or not. Cut the Chinese harvest in half, and the problem of our oceans being over fished disappears.

[planeflyer21]

45 minutes ago, Sisco said:

To go off thread a bit, Try these numbers on for size: China gets 75% of their seafood from domestic aquaculture, yet China still accounts for harvesting over half the Seafood out of the oceans (55%). And that is only 25% of the seafood they eat! China has over 400,000 ocean going fishing vessels! And no one regulates what they take from the worlds oceans. I doubt they care whether it is irradiated by Fukashima or not. Cut the Chinese harvest in half, and the problem of our oceans being over fished disappears.

Not sure where you found that information but here's an assignment for you.

How many ships are there and what percentage are fishing vessels?

[jtallen83]

1 hour ago, Sisco said:

 Cut the Chinese harvest in half, and the problem of our oceans being over fished disappears.

They'll go for that just like a global warming treaty. They will give us the affirmative nod and carry on with what they are doing. Only two ways they will stop over-harvesting fish, if we sink the fishing boats or the oceans run out of fish. Their government will do everything needed to keep the people happy and the party in power.

[Magwa]

Just remember this , a fish raised in a small pond has no muscle they are very mushy meated  this is what is wrong with farm raised fish they do not chase their food it is given to them in pellet form, my self I will never eat that crap.....and they do not have 1/4 the food value of their wild brothers.....

[planeflyer21]

53 minutes ago, Magwa said:

Just remember this , a fish raised in a small pond has no muscle they are very mushy meated  this is what is wrong with farm raised fish they do not chase their food it is given to them in pellet form, my self I will never eat that crap.....and they do not have 1/4 the food value of their wild brothers.....

I've seen something about giving the fish a strong current to help with that, like a lap pool setup or something.

Heck, here in Arizona we're happy to have fish in water!  A person can get a bit tired of Sonoran sand trout.

[DNP]

So, we need to raise wild fish in the pond?

[sketch]

4 hours ago, Magwa said:

Just remember this , a fish raised in a small pond has no muscle they are very mushy meated  this is what is wrong with farm raised fish they do not chase their food it is given to them in pellet form, my self I will never eat that crap.....and they do not have 1/4 the food value of their wild brothers.....

I cant keep wild trout where im at! They have to have the adipose fin removed to harvest! I dont eat them, They tast like dirt!  Dont have time or gear to hunt salmon anymore! From the looks of it i choose wisely??  

[Magwa]

no having wild fish would not help them they need a lot of water to swim in and food they can catch so that they develop fully instead of swimming in a circle all their life, example you are living in a round room all you do is walk around and around and you are fed tofu!.... :)

[shepp]

58 minutes ago, Magwa said:

no having wild fish would not help them they need a lot of water to swim in and food they can catch so that they develop fully instead of swimming in a circle all their life, example you are living in a round room all you do is walk around and around and you are fed tofu!.... :)

You to become mushy

[Sisco]

20 hours ago, planeflyer21 said:

Not sure where you found that information but here's an assignment for you.

How many ships are there and what percentage are fishing vessels?

 

16 hours ago, Magwa said:

Just remember this , a fish raised in a small pond has no muscle they are very mushy meated  this is what is wrong with farm raised fish they do not chase their food it is given to them in pellet form, my self I will never eat that crap.....and they do not have 1/4 the food value of their wild brothers.....

Plane, I got it from Scientific American as well as some Advisory Committees I sit on. I will go back and dig up the SA link when I have a little more time. SA published an article on Chinese seafood consumption and Chinese Aquaculture about 6-8 months ago. Here is the link.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/china-s-fish-farms-could-save-the-oceans/

Mags you are right about traditional aquaculture practices causing inferior seafood. Plane you are right about providing a current in a circular tank leading to improved muscular development as well as better size and health of aquaculture fish. The other key is what you feed them. Traditional fish food has not had a lot of science, research or investigation done on it. Now that is changing, I have seen a lot of requests for support to improve the quality and benefits of aquaculture fish food. Some of the previous studies are showing pretty remarkable results. I have tasted aquaculture Arctic Char that tasted nearly as good as wild caught Lake Trout, a near relative. I also have tasted Saugeye, that was almost indistinguishable from wild walleye. Are they on the same level yet? No. and they might never be. But good aquaculture fish is getting close. I say good because it all depends on the operator and his methods. And when you start talking Chilean raised salmon and steelhead, or even Norwegian and Scottish Atlantic Salmon, They will never be as good a quality as the wild stuff. They also cause a lot of problems as far as disease and pollution. Those Fish Pen facilities are basically ocean CAFO's with the same problems. I was involved in the fight to keep those out of the Great Lakes. Land based aquaculture/aquaponics is the future. Man, you guys made the mistake of getting me on a topic I am passionate about and have done a lot of research on.

[Sisco]

A somewhat liberal rag but it makes some good points about the genuine upset in rural America, and rightfully so.

http://civileats.com/2016/10/27/want-to-understand-trumps-rise-head-to-the-farm/

[Magwa]

Very good point about farm raised salmon they have holding pens in the ocean these fish carry diseases then pass them on to wild fish that get anywhere close to them , then those fish bring the disease to the hatcheries and well you get the point, I firmly believe the days of commercial fishing for salmon must be ended! if you want a wild fish go catch it otherwise buy farm raised, and all farms must be inland away from oceans NO contact with the ocean should be allowed when farming anything seafood related.

 here is Idaho we release 10 million smolts a year yes ten MILLION... we get back about 1percent if we are lucky Dams, birds, over populated sea lions and seals, all take their toll on the smolts as well as natural deaths but the young fish are never as strong as their wild brothers and there for  have less chance of making it to the ocean. then after two years they come back to their parent waters only to have commercial netters have the first crack at them now this is tax payers dollars giving them a job and robbing the sport dollars from the public which is about 300 times what commercial fisherman spent that goes back to the public... you do the math but keep that farm raised crap away from the ocean.

   I feel the same about game farming ,deer and elk some escape and then fuk up the wild genetics or pass on diseases... shut all that fake crap down!

[Sisco]

CWD Chronic Wasting Disease came from deer and elk farms. Nasty stuff. Similar to Mad Cow disease.

[planeflyer21]

1 hour ago, Sisco said:

CWD Chronic Wasting Disease came from deer and elk farms. Nasty stuff. Similar to Mad Cow disease.

I had read that there was a link between CWD and large cattle feed lots, where they feed them dead sick cows.

[jtallen83]

1 hour ago, planeflyer21 said:

I had read that there was a link between CWD and large cattle feed lots, where they feed them dead sick cows.

They tracked it back to that originally. They are not allowed to feed the dead to the living anymore but the disease still pops up occasionally. Sad part is American producers are held to all these higher standards while Argentina is allowed to sell its meat here without the same restrictions. This ignorance is killing our domestic farmers.

[ARTrooper]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 9:26 AM, shepp said:

Think you took me outta context buddy lol

hehe. more fun that way. :P

[shepp]

3 minutes ago, ARTrooper said:

hehe. more fun that way. :P

Whatever floats your boat

[planeflyer21]

1 hour ago, jtallen83 said:

They tracked it back to that originally. They are not allowed to feed the dead to the living anymore but the disease still pops up occasionally. Sad part is American producers are held to all these higher standards while Argentina is allowed to sell its meat here without the same restrictions. This ignorance is killing our domestic farmers.

And Brazil.  Seen some canned beef from Uraguay or some such too.