Cliff R Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 On 1/17/2019 at 7:42 PM, Sisco said: 100-200 yards. That is all I currently have access to. Working on joining a club that has a 600 yard range. If you are going to move out to 600 yards (or further) then groups size at 100 yards starts to become a pretty big deal. I like to see my hunting loads stay at or very close to 1" at 100 yards. That puts me well on deer to Elk size game at "normal" shooting distances. Don't be fooled by the game channel showing folks making really long shots on huge bull Elk at ridiculously long distances. I've been hunting out West for decades and the vast majority of the Elk I've taken have been less than 75 yards and usually in pretty thick cover, moving as well. So low powered scopes, heavier bullets with good expansion characteristics, and quick back up shots are higher on my priority list than loads that punch the same hole at 100 yards. For long range or match shooting you absolutely want to find a load that shoots well under 1" consistently at 100 yards. A 1.5" group average at 100 yards in clear out to 9" or so at 600 yards and over a foot at 1000 yards...that doesn't cut it for High Power matches or days at Camp Perry on the long range course. Back when I shot competitively (mid to late 1980's, and ya I know I'm an "old geezer") they required everyone to pull their ammo from the same lot. I remember Lake City 308 Match was typically brought in on a pallet and you picked from it after the pre-fire lecture. Not overly familiar with the newer ammo but have played around with several types so far and not overly impressed with any of it. I have 3 rifles and fired several military "ball" loads including PMC (which usually fairs pretty well in my AR-15's), and several hunting loads from Winchester and Federal including "fusion". Couldn't get any of them to meet the criteria I was looking for so made up some hand loads settling on Barnes 175 grain bullets over Varget. In all 3 rifles they are easily 1" or a little tighter at 100 yards, good enough for going out West for big game........Cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magwa Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 First and foremost I am a hunter I have been hunting in Idaho for almost 40 years we have both thick cover and wide open spaces with little to no cover I settled on the Barnes bullets back in 1990or around that time I have shot them mostly in 7mm STW but the last 5 years I have shot them in my LR308 16 inch barrel I shoot the TTSX168 for everything! I have killed 5 elk and numerous deer with them they are like a light switch you plug one in a elk the lights go out and they shoot for me sub 1 inch at 100 and I have killed with them over 400 if you hunt ground hogs then you must be back east that load will do anything you want in the USA. good luck and that is a nice looking rifle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf McQuade Posted January 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Magwa said: First and foremost I am a hunter I have been hunting in Idaho for almost 40 years we have both thick cover and wide open spaces with little to no cover I settled on the Barnes bullets back in 1990or around that time I have shot them mostly in 7mm STW but the last 5 years I have shot them in my LR308 16 inch barrel I shoot the TTSX168 for everything! I have killed 5 elk and numerous deer with them they are like a light switch you plug one in a elk the lights go out and they shoot for me sub 1 inch at 100 and I have killed with them over 400 if you hunt ground hogs then you must be back east that load will do anything you want in the USA. good luck and that is a nice looking rifle Nice elk!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff R Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 I like the Barnes 175's and blasted a ground hog with my PA-10 at 150 yards with one heading back to do a little shooting before heading out to Colorado last October. Even on a ground hog the big 175 grain ballistic tip Barnes bullet left a fist size exit hole! Unfortunately I didn't get on an Elk this year. Had one opportunity but passed it up not being sure the bull was legal as he was moving really fast in heavy cover. The 308-AR's I own all like the heavy Barnes bullets, but shoot pretty good with a plain old Sierra 150 grain soft point over a full charge of IMR-4320. I also loaded up some Hornady 155's that shot very well hovering around 1" at 100 yards thru all three rifles. I still haven't stumbled onto a load that will delivery one hole accuracy, but for hunting I'm content with the big Barnes bullets and hope to try them out on a big bull Elk next season........Cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisco Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Cliff R said: I like the Barnes 175's and blasted a ground hog with my PA-10 at 150 yards with one heading back to do a little shooting before heading out to Colorado last October. Even on a ground hog the big 175 grain ballistic tip Barnes bullet left a fist size exit hole! Unfortunately I didn't get on an Elk this year. Had one opportunity but passed it up not being sure the bull was legal as he was moving really fast in heavy cover. The 308-AR's I own all like the heavy Barnes bullets, but shoot pretty good with a plain old Sierra 150 grain soft point over a full charge of IMR-4320. I also loaded up some Hornady 155's that shot very well hovering around 1" at 100 yards thru all three rifles. I still haven't stumbled onto a load that will delivery one hole accuracy, but for hunting I'm content with the big Barnes bullets and hope to try them out on a big bull Elk next season........Cliff After seeing a number of eagles and other animals in this area, northern Wisconsin, die of lead poisoning from ingesting lead in gut piles, I have decided to switch to Barnes copper projectiles for all my future hunting. It is not only a dam fine bullet, it also is a responsible choice. I will use up my SMK’s for target shooting, but for hunting, Barnes will be in the magazine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf McQuade Posted January 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sisco said: After seeing a number of eagles and other animals in this area, northern Wisconsin, die of lead poisoning from ingesting lead in gut piles, I have decided to switch to Barnes copper projectiles for all my future hunting. It is not only a dam fine bullet, it also is a responsible choice. I will use up my SMK’s for target shooting, but for hunting, Barnes will be in the magazine. I have no knowledge of the copper bullets now out. Are they more expensive, same performance and accuracy? How do they expand compared to Conventional heads? Very interesting! Edited January 20, 2019 by Lonewolf McQuade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filthy phil Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 Rich mans ammo I'm sticking with federal xm80 and Malaysian or other surplus at 50cents a pop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisco Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Lonewolf McQuade said: I have no knowledge of the copper bullets now out. Are they more expensive, same performance and accuracy? How do they expand compared to Conventional heads? Very interesting! All Barnes are pure copper I believe. Just my personal choice. Just like lead shot for waterfowl. Time to take some personal responsibility. And believe me, I have a lot of lead bullets! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 German ammo is good also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 Getting rid of lead projectiles for hunting and lead weights for fishing is a responsible move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf McQuade Posted January 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) The 2 cases of priv partisan match i ordered is about 60 cents per round, not bad for accurate quality ammo imo. Once I get geared up for reloading, (which means from scratch! Dad sold everything before he passed without telling me) I'm going to dig in to researching copper bullets. Edited January 20, 2019 by Lonewolf McQuade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Lonewolf McQuade said: I have no knowledge of the copper bullets now out. Are they more expensive, same performance and accuracy? How do they expand compared to Conventional heads? Very interesting! 35 minutes ago, Sisco said: All Barnes are pure copper I believe. YOu cannot go wrong with Barnes bullets. Since they are all copper (some tipped, somenot), you have to be careful loading them. Copper is lighter than lead, so a lighter copper projectile can sometimes be longer than a combo lead.copper projo. Let me get into this a little here... When we usually talk about "heavy bullets" - what we're really talking about is longer bullets. You load a projectile, determine a twist, etc, based on weight, right? Usually, yeah, but in the case of composites or solids, the answer is NO. You really load a projo based on length of the projo. Where you usually see this is "heavier is longer." Since you're constrained to a bore diameter, you can't go bigger. To go "heavier" means you go longer on the projo - in most cases, with similar projo construction (lead, copper jacket, boat-tail, open-tipped, whatever combo of features). Heavier is longer. Not the case with solid copper. For example, I give you the 5.56 analogy - here's a 70-grain Barnes TSX in .224" diameter, compared to a Sierra MatchKing 77-grain "heavy.": You load that Barnes 70 TSX with the common load values that you would load a Sierra 77 SMK with. That 70-grain projo is longer than a 77-grain SMK... As far as expansion, the Barnes TSX and TTSX line expand in an equal manner as the SMK/TMK.GameKing line (excellent expansion), but they commonly retain MORE weight, when recovered. The solid coppers retain more weight. That in itself makes them a superior hunting projectile, and it's what makes them so successful/deadly on game. You load them right, and you've just made a superior hunting machine out of your gun. I load enough of them in various calibers, so I bought the Barnes Load Manual for reference, just for these projectiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisco Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 Thanks for the education 98. Definitely sounds worth the extra price. I have a friend who assists her husband in rescuing raptors,usually eagles and big owls, who have toxic poisoning. With eagles it is usually lead from bait piles. With owls warfarin from eating DCon exposed mice and rats. Until she filled me in, I had no idea this was a problem. Her husband also climbs 130 feet up big white pines and bands eaglets every spring. Interesting couple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf McQuade Posted January 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 58 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: YOu cannot go wrong with Barnes bullets. Since they are all copper (some tipped, somenot), you have to be careful loading them. Copper is lighter than lead, so a lighter copper projectile can sometimes be longer than a combo lead.copper projo. Let me get into this a little here... When we usually talk about "heavy bullets" - what we're really talking about is longer bullets. You load a projectile, determine a twist, etc, based on weight, right? Usually, yeah, but in the case of composites or solids, the answer is NO. You really load a projo based on length of the projo. Where you usually see this is "heavier is longer." Since you're constrained to a bore diameter, you can't go bigger. To go "heavier" means you go longer on the projo - in most cases, with similar projo construction (lead, copper jacket, boat-tail, open-tipped, whatever combo of features). Heavier is longer. Not the case with solid copper. For example, I give you the 5.56 analogy - here's a 70-grain Barnes TSX in .224" diameter, compared to a Sierra MatchKing 77-grain "heavy.": You load that Barnes 70 TSX with the common load values that you would load a Sierra 77 SMK with. That 70-grain projo is longer than a 77-grain SMK... As far as expansion, the Barnes TSX and TTSX line expand in an equal manner as the SMK/TMK.GameKing line (excellent expansion), but they commonly retain MORE weight, when recovered. The solid coppers retain more weight. That in itself makes them a superior hunting projectile, and it's what makes them so successful/deadly on game. You load them right, and you've just made a superior hunting machine out of your gun. I load enough of them in various calibers, so I bought the Barnes Load Manual for reference, just for these projectiles. I've got more to learn! poop changed from what little I did know 10 years back....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, Sisco said: Her husband also climbs 130 feet up big white pines and bands eaglets every spring. I've done my trek up giant-ass Nisqually 110-foot pines, to recover parachutes. About 1/2 a dozen times. Fuk that. You run a Drop Zone and have an idiot that can't steer a steerable parachute - land in a tree off the drop zone... You call a helicopter to extract his dumb ass from the tree - and the parachute stays there, WAY up in the tree. As the guy running the Drop Zone (DZSO), YOU are signed for all the gear, including that parachute, that is WAY UP THERE, in that tree. Turns into a "Statement of Charges" in the long run. Hell no, not on MY watch. I go back out there and get that parachute outta that fucking tree. Close drop zone, issue numerous reports (Jumper off DZ, eqmt left on DZ, etc). Safety reports out the ass - because some dummy can't fly. So, next day, hit up the Commo dudes and sign out their pole-climbing spikes, chainsaw, harness, and two sets of straps - set one small, and the other one big. Go back out to the DZ, easy to find that parachute blowing in the wind, 100+ feet up there in that bigass tree... Strap on the spikes, size up that large strap to fit around that bigass trunk, tie off your chainsaw on a 6ft tether to the belt - and start climbing. You "Q-Tip" that tree - cut off anything on your way, on the way up. Once you hit the point where the big strap is too loose - you setup and transition to the short strap - and keep going until you get to the parachute. You'll get that fucker out of that tree, one way or the other. I'm not paying for a parachute... I only had one try to take me out - I got the parachute free, and that fucker was crashing down quick-like - and wrapped around me, tied to that tree. It turned me upside down, and the only thing keeping me from skidding down that barked-up bitch and dying- was sling tension. That short strap locked up against the tree and kept me up there. I cut the FUK out of that parachute to get it off me, upside down, 100 feet up. Didn't really matter how many pieces I brought it back in - as long as I brought it back. I went up after one of them that had to be 130 feet up there - and said "Hell no..." I came back down, and cut the tree down. When it was coming down, the parachute got stuck in ANOTHER tree on the way down, and stopped that shenanigan from happening. I cut the OTHER tree down. Never once did I ever leave a parachute out there - no matter HOW DUMB the jumper was... I will NOT disclose the location of claimed shananigans, because cutting down trees was strictly verboten. Q-Tipping them was never mentioned in ANY Range Regulations, and I never had ANY problem doing that business. That one fucker, though... I wasn't leaving it out there, no way, no how... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 17 minutes ago, Lonewolf McQuade said: I've got more to learn! poop changed from what little I did know 10 years back....? We're here for you - make no mistake about that. Fret it not, brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 98Z, I've got to admit I like your style! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf McQuade Posted January 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 16 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: We're here for you - make no mistake about that. Fret it not, brother. Much appreciated sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Lonewolf McQuade said: Much appreciated sir! This reminds me of a military quote, Occifer versus Enlisted. The Officers were "managers" but the Enlisted ran the show, daily, every single day. I was Enlisted. "Sir" is what you called the Officers (Occifers). I worked for a living, and wasn't a "manager," like the higher-paid Officers. You'll hear that often, in military circles, when you call someone "Sir..." The response usually is "FUK THAT! I'm not a "SIR" - I WORKED for a living!"... Officers suck. Only the successful Officers had some STRONG Enlisted men shaping their careers. The unsuccessful Officers were micro-managers that didn't listen to their Enlisted Senior NCOs, or just had weakass NCOs under them - and those NCOs didn't uphold a standard. Weak NCOs SUCK, and they only breed fucked up Officers. Strong NCOs fuk young Lieutenants up with regularity, early in their Officer career, and guide them on the path of true Military Leadership. "Give them enough rope to make mistakes, but NEVER give them enough rope to hurt someone..." Let 'em fuk up, but REIGN THAT ASS IN BEFORE IT GETS SERIOUS. When that is about to happen, you must seriously LAY THE SMACKETH DOWN UPON THEM. I never wavered from that. I've issued some incredible ass-beatdowns upon them, sometimes in private, afterwards - and sometimes it's not gonna wait for that... And you do it NOW - in front of everyone. "You never chastize a Superior in front of Subordinates" has it's place, in normal circumstances - but not always. Sometimes you need to blow the fuk up, no matter who is around... Real lessons get learned, right then... So, I'm not a "Sir," I worked for a living... I am simply "Tom-Ass..." Edited January 20, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 40 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: Turns into a "Statement of Charges" in the long run. Explains why that SFC didn't give a schit about my blown out knee, just wanted to know exactly where I left that chute! Yep, in a tree over there somewhere.....god damn Air Force idiots dropped us on the wrong side of the LZ with stiff winds, turned in to the lights but they just kept getting closer together. Nothing to do but tuck those boots tight under my balls and wait for the trees that I knew where there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf McQuade Posted January 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: This reminds me of a military quote, Occifer versus Enlisted. The Officers were "managers" but the Enlisted ran the show, daily, every single day. I was Enlisted. "Sir" is what you called the Officers (Occifers). I worked for a living, and wasn't a "manager," like the higher-paid Officers. You'll hear that often, in military circles, when you call someone "Sir..." The response usually is "FUK THAT! I'm not a "SIR" - I WORKED for a living!"... Officers suck. Only the successful Officers had some STRONG Enlisted men shaping their careers. The unsuccessful Officers were micro-managers that didn't listen to their Enlisted Senior NCOs, or just had weakass NCOs under them - and those NCOs didn't uphold a standard. Weak NCOs SUCK, and they only breed fucked up Officers. Strong NCOs fuk young Lieutenants up with regularity, early in their Officer career, and guide them on the path of true Military Leadership. "Give them enough rope to make mistakes, but NEVER give them enough rope to hurt someone..." Let 'em fuk up, but REIGN THAT ASS IN BEFORE IT GETS SERIOUS. When that is about to happen, you must seriously LAY THE SMACKETH DOWN UPON THEM. I never wavered from that. I've issued some incredible ass-beatdowns upon them, sometimes in private, afterwards - and sometimes it's not gonna wait for that... And you do it NOW - in front of everyone. "You never chastize a Superior in front of Subordinates" has it's place, in normal circumstances - but not always. Sometimes you need to blow the fuk up, no matter who is around... Real lessons get learned, right then... So, I'm not a "Sir," I worked for a living... I am simply "Tom-Ass..." No disrespect intended lol even if youre a tom ass, a wise ass, a smart ass or just an ass. Thank you for your help, support and wisdom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 44 minutes ago, Lonewolf McQuade said: No disrespect intended lol even if youre a tom ass, a wise ass, a smart ass or just an ass. Thank you for your help, support and wisdom I knew there was zero disrespect in your comment... and I'm just an ass... You either love me - or you can't get away from me, once I crawl up your ass and spread out like a Spider Monkey... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff R Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) What sex is the bird on an Officers hat?.........It's a male, and it's ALWAYS a male. Why you might ask? Because there is always a PRICK underneath it!.....LOL "The unsuccessful Officers were micro-managers that didn't listen to their Enlisted Senior NCOs, or just had weakass NCOs under them - and those NCOs didn't uphold a standard" +2, 3, 4 and 5! Officers have their place in the organization and I've worked with many over the years when still on active duty. They are still people, just like the rest of us, good, bad, some just OK. There are PLENTY of enlisted pukes who's entire existence isn't worth two squirts of duck poop. Early in my career worked briefly for an NCO who wished he was close to as tall as I was, and as strong and fast. He degraded (disrespectful and treated my like poop) me on a daily basis until I put a stop to it. Cost me a promotion and got me short toured out of that unit, but it was necessary. The rank structure is there for a reason, most of the time works fine for folks who are dedicated, mission oriented, etc. I liked it, respected it, lived by it.......but......once in a while it doesn't work like it's supposed to and you have to do the wrong thing to get the right outcome. Just like a few others (a couple were Officers) I've known over my 20 year career he would have been the first one to get my bullet if we'd ever got our position overrun by the enemy. That's just the way it is and I try not to dwell on the bad times. On the flip side of the coin in the 1980's (Reagan years) we took on a "task" working directly for the State Department, hell I suppose mentioning it now woln't matter but back then in was all hush-hush secret squirrel crap. Every single person, Officer or Enlisted not only volunteered for that deal they were screened in front of a panel and extensive background investigation done, etc. If you made it thru that deal off for special training required to help us perform the mission. Those that made it (many did not) were by far and above the finest folks I've ever worked with, and to this day everyone one of them would be on my list of folks I'd want in close proximity if we were getting overrun by the enemy or any other shitty situation you might not make it out of without a good fight. One last comment on Military rank structure, etc. Late in my career I saw changes that were not good for the organization. Brought on by HR and "work life" crap (IMHO). They started paying more attention to the members total well being and cushy home-life, and made PTSD a household word. Not that there's anything wrong with making sure a guys personal life is doing well because it can reflect somewhat on how well they perform their jobs, but they blew that crap WAY out of proportion and put too much focus on touchy-feely chit. This just gave the marginal performers another tool to get out of work because the wife was going to have an ultra-sound to find out what sex the bun in the oven was going to be....really.....we're getting ready to deploy and you want an day off for what? I remember those times all too well and glad I retired when I did because I found myself spending WAY too much time dealing with one or two marginal performers and all their work-life crap, instead of being able to put my right boot far enough up their ars to remind them that all that chit, even though important is done on your own time, not on my time. Anyhow, interesting it was mentioned above about lead bullets and Eagles. The ground hog I whacked on the way back to our shooting range last Fall had a young Eagle on it in minutes. Kind of cool but Eagles around these parts get to eat first, the buzzards sit close by but wait their turn with great respect. Never even dawned on me that ingesting lead from gut piles could be hard on them, steel core or solid copper from now on for my varmint loads........tks......Cliff Edited January 21, 2019 by Cliff R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magwa Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 98 told it straight copper is far superior to lead bullets they stay together, they almost always pass through both sides two holes are better than one the animal bleeds out faster, they crunch bones and still stay together and they are accurate and you get no lead in your meat, that was the big deal for me I got tired of poorly constructed bullets leaving lead in my steaks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf McQuade Posted January 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Magwa said: 98 told it straight copper is far superior to lead bullets they stay together, they almost always pass through both sides two holes are better than one the animal bleeds out faster, they crunch bones and still stay together and they are accurate and you get no lead in your meat, that was the big deal for me I got tired of poorly constructed bullets leaving lead in my steaks... sounds like the way to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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