Wish I'd found yall sooner...

[roach0415]

Hey everybody new here obviously, names Roach and I picked up a PA10 some years ago from a buddy hurting for cash. She's been a safe queen that just got shot the first time a month ago. What got me here was the excessive recoil. I mean no way this thing should hurt ya worse than my trusty ole 30'06 carbine right.. So I started reading other forms, "over gassed" was everywhere, so picked up an Odin adjustable(its still in packaging) along with a Magpull PRS... Then found yall, wish I'd started here. Been reading everything on here I can and have determined that instead of a couple add ons, this girl needs a complete overhaul. Love all the detailed info provided.. I'm sure you'll hear lots of dumb questions from me, I've done some complete 15 builds but this'll be my first big AR, so I guess if I had a 1st question.. Where to start??? Buffer tube assembly i suppose.. 1 box of tula ammo and we already got damage to the tube.. buffers light(3.8 oz)and spring seems short. 

Are there any major advantages to scrapping this entire assembly and going AR10 rifle vs getting a good spring and heavy buffer, and sticking with the 7-3/4" tube?? I'm not a rich man lol, but I do wanna end up with something worth owning and reliable.

[shooterrex]

Welcome from KY. I also have 2 gen II PSA 308s. The fixed stock rifle just required a Armalite gas tube to run right. I have replaced the trigger and barrel to get it to group better.

The carbine stocked receiver set I built as a pistol. I used the Armalite 308 carbine recoil system.

https://www.armalite.com/SACItem.aspx?Item=AR10REKIT01&ReturnURL=/Armalite/Product-Category/AR10-Parts-Accessories&Category=4eeff98b-d9a6-40fd-be6b-ab2e44ec1080

[Armed Eye Doc]

Welcome to the forum

[unforgiven]

Welcome from Indiana brother

[98Z5V]

Roach, keep the extension.  Get any old AR15 H3 Carbine Buffer, and the Armalite EA-1095 spring (or the Sprinco Red spring).  Put two quarters in the extension first, that's 0.069" thick each.  Then spring, buffer, etc.  That'll turn your 7 3/4" internal depth into what it should be, 7 5/8".  No more hitting the lower with the BCG after you do that.

After that, it's gas tube length, and gas port diameter.  The only two things left to making that gun eat just about anything, and function correctly.

Welcome aboard. 

[sagebrush]

i found my way here via psa also. welcome from oregon

[jtallen83]

Welcome from Iowa!

11 minutes ago, sagebrush said:

i found my way here via psa also.

 

[Rsquared]

Welcome from Maryland.

[Cunuckgaucho]

Welcome from BC

[98Z5V]

41 minutes ago, sagebrush said:

i found my way here via psa also. welcome from oregon

 

27 minutes ago, jtallen83 said:

Welcome from Iowa!

 

Seems PSA keeps me busy.  Figure out what the "real standards and specs" should be, make the guns that, and they magically run.  Unreal, that they haven't fixed their own guns yet, or listened to a single thing. 

Thank you, PSA!  

[98Z5V]

15 hours ago, roach0415 said:

 I picked up a PA10 some years ago from a buddy hurting for cash.

Give me your barrel specs, and I'll tell you what the gas port diameter should be.  Overall length, gas system length, and gas block journal diameter is all I need.

[Magwa]

welcome from Idaho...

[roach0415]

14 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Roach, keep the extension.  Get any old AR15 H3 Carbine Buffer, and the Armalite EA-1095 spring (or the Sprinco Red spring).  Put two quarters in the extension first, that's 0.069" thick each.  Then spring, buffer, etc.  That'll turn your 7 3/4" internal depth into what it should be, 7 5/8".  No more hitting the lower with the BCG after you do that.

After that, it's gas tube length, and gas port diameter.  The only two things left to making that gun eat just about anything, and function correctly.

Welcome aboard. 

Really appreciate  the advice sir,, however last night night i noticed yet another issue with the buffer tube. When trying to install the PRS, it won't slide over the threads on this tube(leaves a 3/16" gap). So im either gonna have to dremal out the first 1/4" inside of tube or switch to a rifle tube. If I go the rifle tube option, would you recommend the Armalite rifle tube,spring, buffer?? Or go with the Heavy Buffer XH Rifle buffer set up???

At the moment I haven't pulled the upper apart yet. Figured I'd get the lower "right" first, but from reading your posts and others.. I can already tell the gas tube is to short... it barely reaches the key cut out, and id bet $100 this 18" barrel ( 18" psa ss w/ mid length system, .750 block) will be like all their others, with the port hole being undersized... but you Sir can believe once I get to the upper ill be picking your brains on that to 😁

Edited December 3, 2021 by roach0415

[98Z5V]

8 hours ago, roach0415 said:

Really appreciate  the advice sir,, however last night night i noticed yet another issue with the buffer tube. When trying to install the PRS, it won't slide over the threads on this tube(leaves a 3/16" gap). So im either gonna have to dremal out the first 1/4" inside of tube or switch to a rifle tube. If I go the rifle tube option, would you recommend the Armalite rifle tube,spring, buffer?? Or go with the Heavy Buffer XH Rifle buffer set up???

At the moment I haven't pulled the upper apart yet. Figured I'd get the lower "right" first, but from reading your posts and others.. I can already tell the gas tube is to short... it barely reaches the key cut out, and id bet $100 this 18" barrel ( 18" psa ss w/ mid length system, .750 block) will be like all their others, with the port hole being undersized... but you Sir can believe once I get to the upper ill be picking your brains on that to 😁

Okay...   Don't modify that extension, just get rid of it.  Can that whole recoil system, completely.  Two choices that will not fail you will be:  Armalite AR-10 Carbine Recoil System kit, it's everything you'll need, or Armalite AR-10 Rifle Recoil kit, it'll have everything you need.  Don't worry about which one will work, they both will - just get whichever one is in stock at the moment.  That's the beauty of running the PRS 3 stock.

Thank you for the dimensions/config of that barrel.  I have alot of experience with that exact setup.  While you're on Armalite's website for the recoil system, toss in an AR-10 Carbine gas tube - you WILL need that.  The wording is correct, Armalite calls it "Carbine" for a midlegnth gas tube.  It'll be the correct length that you need.  Your gas port in that barrel will be 0.070".  That's what they always do to those, and the way they make them.  It needs to be 0.080"~0.085" to run right.  18" midlength from them, always manufactured the exact same way. 

[roach0415]

2 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Okay...   Don't modify that extension, just get rid of it.  Can that whole recoil system, completely.  Two choices that will not fail you will be:  Armalite AR-10 Carbine Recoil System kit, it's everything you'll need, or Armalite AR-10 Rifle Recoil kit, it'll have everything you need.  Don't worry about which one will work, they both will - just get whichever one is in stock at the moment.  That's the beauty of running the PRS 3 stock.

Thank you for the dimensions/config of that barrel.  I have alot of experience with that exact setup.  While you're on Armalite's website for the recoil system, toss in an AR-10 Carbine gas tube - you WILL need that.  The wording is correct, Armalite calls it "Carbine" for a midlegnth gas tube.  It'll be the correct length that you need.  Your gas port in that barrel will be 0.070".  That's what they always do to those, and the way they make them.  It needs to be 0.080"~0.085" to run right.  18" midlength from them, always manufactured the exact same way. 

Awesome, and thank you. On which tube to get. I definitely wouldn't have "guessed" Armalite called the 1 i need a "carbine". But since were in to the upper already lol. Next question... I don't have a drill press, so what are the chances "in your opinion" of a guy snapping off a bit using a screw gun an bit  to drill out that gas port??? Should I just spend the $ to have a Smith do it in a press or is that barrel pretty soft??? And since we're already talking upper... an suggestions on a flash hider/comp??? All our 15s and the wifes travors are set up with efabs or vg6's... I Know the vg6 isn't what I'm looking for on this girl. Any suggestions from any body on a front end??? Better/similar to the efab???

[98Z5V]

VG6 is excellent, IMHO.  I have a bunch of them.  If you run the 300BLK 2-port brake (threaded 5/8"x24), you can run the CAGE Device on it, and it's effective.  I love that combo, and have it on a whole bunch of guns.

I've talked here a bunch about drilling gas ports.  It's not hard, and you definitely don't need a drill press to do it.  You can do it with a hand drill, and if you snap off a bit, you had the drill going too fast.  Go slow, use WD-40 for some lube on the bit, and put a 1/4" dowel down the barrel if you're nervous about breaking through and hitting the other side.  If you're going slow, that shouldn't be a concern.  Go slow on the drill speed, light pressure, lube the bit, and let the bit do the work - let it eat.  It works.  Your pilot hole is already there, so it's pretty hard to fuk it up. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by 98Z5V

[98Z5V]

On 12/3/2021 at 9:23 PM, 98Z5V said:

I've talked here a bunch about drilling gas ports.  It's not hard, and you definitely don't need a drill press to do it.  You can do it with a hand drill, and if you snap off a bit, you had the drill going too fast. 

@roach0415, I just punched a barrel for my gun pusher this afternoon in his shop, that was too small.  Took about 4 minutes, going slow on the drill.  Hand drill.  Your pilot hole is already there - use it.   18" midlength gas barrel, 0.750" journal size, with a 0.069" gas port.  NO WAY that's gonna work, and the primary reason that the guy's gun just sucked.  It went to 0.085" with a quickness. 

Brave it - it's really, really easy to do.  Go slow on the drill speed, and let the bit eat. 

P.S.  No wooden dowel in the barrel. Just go slow with the speed...  The dowel is for those that are skeered... 

Edited December 5, 2021 by 98Z5V

[roach0415]

Aright @9875Z , Armalite gas tube , spring, and buffer on the way... I'd already "fixed" the PRS to fit over the threads on my PSA buffer tube before I saw your scrap it post... guess I'll get started pulling the upper apart tomorrow. I got 2 deer to put in the freezer today first tho. I'll post up exactly what this upper has once I get it apart... gas port hole & actual tube length...

  0.082 ,if I remember correctly is a #45 bit. Think ill pick up a brand new quality bit for this lol. So might be a little bit before I make it to the city for 1. I know the local store only had a #35  when I was there yesterday.. 

Once again, extremely thankful I found you guys.

[mrmackc]

On 12/5/2021 at 12:29 AM, 98Z5V said:

@roach0415, I just punched a barrel for my gun pusher this afternoon in his shop, that was too small.  Took about 4 minutes, going slow on the drill.  Hand drill.  Your pilot hole is already there - use it.   18" midlength gas barrel, 0.750" journal size, with a 0.069" gas port.  NO WAY that's gonna work, and the primary reason that the guy's gun just sucked.  It went to 0.085" with a quickness. 

Brave it - it's really, really easy to do.  Go slow on the drill speed, and let the bit eat. 

P.S.  No wooden dowel in the barrel. Just go slow with the speed...  The dowel is for those that are skeered... 

Post script, using a wooden dowel is kinda like using shooting glasses....Just in case , the bit grabs and keeps going, doesn't happen often, but it just shows you care...LOL

On 12/5/2021 at 9:26 AM, roach0415 said:

Aright @9875Z , Armalite gas tube , spring, and buffer on the way... I'd already "fixed" the PRS to fit over the threads on my PSA buffer tube before I saw your scrap it post... guess I'll get started pulling the upper apart tomorrow. I got 2 deer to put in the freezer today first tho. I'll post up exactly what this upper has once I get it apart... gas port hole & actual tube length...

  0.082 ,if I remember correctly is a #45 bit. Think ill pick up a brand new quality bit for this lol. So might be a little bit before I make it to the city for 1. I know the local store only had a #35  when I was there yesterday.. 

Once again, extremely thankful I found you guys.

 

[roach0415]

29 minutes ago, mrmackc said:

Post script, using a wooden dowel is kinda like using shooting glasses....Just in case , the bit grabs and keeps going, doesn't happen often, but it just shows you care...LOL

 

True that @mrmackc , im sure im gonna be nervous as hell anyways. 

[98Z5V]

It's easy - you'll be fine.  Slow speed on the drill - as in, you're watching that bit turn, that slow.  Watch it just bring up small pieces of steel, tiny piece at a time.  It's over before you know it.  The pilot hole is already there, so it's not like you're drilling through the barrel, from nothing. 

This is my favorite resource for drill bit sizes:

https://littlemachineshop.com/reference/numberdrillsize.php

You can run the 45 drill bit, at 0.082", but you might as well just use the 44 drill bit and make it 0.086" and be done.  You do have the adjustable block that you can use, so it's not gonna harm anything. The higher side of the spec is better anyway, dealing with these things, and the ammo they get fed...  

Edited December 6, 2021 by 98Z5V

[roach0415]

 Ok @98Z5V, barrel is drilled, and yes for $1.29 i used a 1/4" dowel. Call me skerred if you must. I drove an hour to find that the #45 they said they had was actually a #44 in the wrong slot... so now this port is 0.0865"..figure im gonna run the Odin adjustable i already spent money on anyways.... the 0.073 would go in easy but the 0.078 wouldn't,, so original hole was prolly closer to 0.075~0.076.

On to the gas tube,  could of swore I took a pic in the mag well, but no luck finding it. Tube is only 11.75.. Armalites  is 12.0625 correct??,  so going from memory that should put me a little past center... better a little long than short correct??Especially if I have to shim block forward to line up on hole better..

Pics of tube, hole (man they weren't very centered on it with the last block), from end of barrel, and from butting into receiver.. not pulling this barrel off to get better measurement... 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by roach0415

[98Z5V]

3 minutes ago, roach0415 said:

 Ok @98Z5V, barrel is drilled, drove an hour to find that the #45 they said they had was actually a #44 in the wrong slot... so now this port is 0.0865"..figure im gonna run the Odin adjustable i already spent money on anyways.... the 0.073 would go in easy but the 0.078 wouldn't,, so original hole was prolly closer to 0.075~0.076.

On to the gas tube,  could of swore I took a pic in the mag well, but no luck finding it. Tube is only 11.75.. Armalites  is 12.0625 correct??,  so going from memory that should put me a little past center... better a little long than short correct??Especially if I have to shim block forward to line up on hole better..

Pics of tube, hole (man they weren't very centered on it with the last block), from end of barrel, and from butting into receiver.. not pulling this barrel off to get better measurement...

On both counts, you're gonna be better off, man.  Larger on the gas port at 0.086" over 0.083", and with the Armalite gas tube coming in longer, and going just a touch past the center of the cam pin cutout in the upper.  That's better tahn being shorter, and you NOT having the gas timing that you're supposed to have.  Once the BCG travels rearward, and disconnects from the gas tube, everything else vent out the ejection port anyway.  You'll be alright. 

Correct on the length of the Armalite AR-10 Carbine gas tube - it's 12 1/16".  11 3/4" IS an AR15 Midlength gas tube.    Compare the two, once your Armalite part comes in - note the difference in the bend on the two, to account for the different height-over-bore on the two platforms. 

[roach0415]

 Ok @98Z5V, the DSG order is delayed in Houston or id already have pics up of her put back together... 

Besides glass,, she's only gonna be missing trigger and muzzle device.. You mentioned running a VG6 and cage ( I'm going to assume the gama, since the epsilon is a 3 port), so whats the sound level like. Does the cage quieten it down some?

I run a Gamma on my shorty 10" AR & the wifeys travor, but dear God their loud. (I actually lost part of my hearing last time I shot (1 mag without ear protection won't hurt at 51 right??? WRONG for me)). I mean its a night and day difference between my 16"  with an afab and the wifes 16" travor with a Gamma.

Wish they made a cage for the Epsilon. Then for me I'd be a no brainer... 

And opinions on the LaRue MBT2??? The most expensive trigger to date i run is the ACT ALG, but I'd like something lighter and 2 stage crisp for this, but definitely not $300 lol.

[roach0415]

On 12/5/2021 at 9:42 AM, mrmackc said:

Post script, using a wooden dowel is kinda like using shooting glasses....Just in case , the bit grabs and keeps going, doesn't happen often, but it just shows you care...LOL

 

 PS, @mrmackc, for a whole $1.29 i picked up a 4' dowl.. it was a blessing, no worry and was able to drill "past" with not a care in the world lol... guess 98' can call me skerred if he wants, my wifey calls me worse quite often.