My Dr needs/wants a HD weapon

[BrianK]

The LGS suggested a handgun (why do they do that!!????). It's HD and not CCW... set up a safe room, hold the defensive position and wait for the cops. I suggested a PCC over a shotgun or handgun. In the past few months I've given him other suggestions but all are not handguns unless mounted in a housing that turns it into a PCC. Another was the KelTec .410 KSG with slugs. If he was considering clearing his own home (very bad move IMO, but macho) a handgun might be an option. But at this time that's not the case and a PCC set up properly is just as good for CQB for house clearing in a SHTF scenario as a handgun (maybe better) for an untrained person IMO. 

There were so many suggestions that there's no way I can remember all that I gave him. Quite a few I have on hand for him and his wife to try and that's yet to happen. 

Ideally I'd like a reliable 9mm bullpup but that doesn't exist, at least from the reviews I've seen. 

So what are your PCC choices? What are your HD choices? Don't include handguns that's a non starter for his wifes and his proficiency. His idea is a safe room with an easy to aim and get hits WITHOUT the handgun training and maintenance for proficiency required by a handgun. 

Again in general I suggested a PCC with a red dot and a laser/flashlight (more tactics that I'm not going to write out). What firearms would you suggest in that general category that I've outlined? I can't be everywhere so I need the knowledge of the members. 

Again, a handgun, unless it's in a rifle/PCC housing is a non starter. 

Edited October 20 by BrianK
clarification

[KSdefender]

For my initial HD, I went with a pistol like most people out of initial ignorance. but later augmented that with an Extar EP9.  AR pistol with brace in 9mm.  I paid the tax and got a QuietBore suppressor for it.  I went with a rail mounted streamlight instead of a laser.  Personal choice.  Light, maneuverable, and it uses Glock magazines.  

[unforgiven]

Like the choices brother 

[BrianK]

4 hours ago, KSdefender said:

For my initial HD, I went with a pistol like most people out of initial ignorance. but later augmented that with an Extar EP9.  AR pistol with brace in 9mm.  I paid the tax and got a QuietBore suppressor for it.  I went with a rail mounted streamlight instead of a laser.  Personal choice.  Light, maneuverable, and it uses Glock magazines.  

Thanks. Extar EP9 was one of the first I suggested for him just from the reviews. 

No problems with it? How many rounds through yours?

[KSdefender]

I've only put about 300 rounds through the Extar, but I've not experienced any jamming or other issues.  I used several varieties of 9mm though it: plain old Winchester ball, Hornaday Critical Duty and Critical Defense.  No problems.  It's a well built gun; made here in the USA.  :)

[BrianK]

Thanks.

The price is right and I'm pushing for him to get 2, whatever he decides to get, one for his wife. 

[Cunuckgaucho]

What ever they get, the trick is to get them out shooting and getting familiar with the guns. Hopefully they'll actually enjoy shooting for fun.

[MtnMike]

Mossberg 500 w/ a shortish barrel and buckshot is my first grab for HD.  But I am old school (and kind of old).🫠

Edited October 21 by MtnMike

[BrianK]

Yeah, a 12 gauge is out. They aren't gun folks and I'd never suggest anything with much recoil for them. Plus they are slow to load and pellets spread and I don't know their home. I did suggest the Keltec KSG .410. But HD ammo is >$1 per and cost is a factor. Sure practice can be done with birdshot but the real stuff needs to be fired to insure reliability. To me that means firing a mess of the good stuff.

For them (and most wanting a HD firearm) a 9mm PCC is right. Mag size, ammo availability, accuracy, the list goes on and on. I'm still flummoxed that the LGS showed him nothing but handguns when he told them he wanted something for home HD.  I know those folks and they should know better. Heck, they do know better.

I want to get them to the range so that they can handle and shoot some of the firearms I'm suggesting for them. The Dr wants to do that too.

[Armed Eye Doc]

If it is available, a Mossberg Shockwave (or the above-mentioned 500 with an adapter) with the 1.75 inch shells should be among the options.  You can get 8-9  birdshot, buckshot or slugs in one.  The recoil is minimal with the short shells.  However, precise aiming is optional except for the slugs.  Ammo is maybe a little more expensive than 9mm SD loads, but practice would be a little less IMO.

Edited October 21 by Armed Eye Doc

[BrianK]

I forgot about short shells because my KS-7 won't run them reliably. But yes, minimal recoil. Thanks!

[AngelDeVille]

There are a lot of options for a pcc now. 
 

those folding kel tecs look interesting but I know nothing of their reliability. 
 

CZ scorpion looks interesting as does the multitude of AR9’s available today  

I have never shot those short shotgun shells, and they seem hard to find and I don’t know if I’d trust reliability. 
 

a shotgun is a specialty weapon and should’ve made more complicated by ammo choice as it is already limited in capacity. 
 

I built my AR9 to accept Glock magazines as I didn’t want to deal with modified sten mags. and 32 round Glock mags are cheap and plentiful. 
 

Palmetto State seems to have a good selection of pcc’s

 

 

 

Edited October 24 by AngelDeVille

[MtnMike]

If they are not comfortable with a shotgun, then the gen 3 Kel-Tec Sub2000 9mm w/ a red dot is a good option.  Very light, reliable and uses Glock pistol mags. Relatively cheap as well.

[BrianK]

17 hours ago, MtnMike said:

If they are not comfortable with a shotgun, then the gen 3 Kel-Tec Sub2000 9mm w/ a red dot is a good option.  Very light, reliable and uses Glock pistol mags. Relatively cheap as well.

A red dot is a must. He already knows that. He and his wife aren't gun people so I'm trying to make the choice as bullet proof as possible. So yes, definitely a red dot. Maybe BUIS. Haven't crossed that bridge yet but I mentioned BUIS.

Already alerted him to the Sub2k. I shot one in competition; super reliable, lightweight, plenty accurate. Mine is retired now but only because they are a bitch to clean as I like to clean a weapon (ex military). So I moved to a B&T GHM9 SBR (gen 1) which is easy to clean. And the short barrel is great around barricades and walls. I also suggested the GHM9 and the APC9 (?)  to him for higher end firearms, arm braced of course. 

When we go to the range I will bring my KS7 and light bird shot to familiarize them with a shotgun set up for HD. But I don't think they'll want a shotgun. He immediately liked the idea of a PCC when I suggested it over a handgun that the LGS suggested. Heck, they suggested a small 9mm handgun for someone that doesn't know how to use ANY handgun. 

I also suggested an arm braced RONI and Mechtech conversions if he thought he might want a handgun at some point. Use it mounted in the frame and remove it as needed. 

I didn't think of the 9mm AR. I've only been suggesting firearms that I know to be reliable. I know nothing about AR 9mms and I've never seen one in use in competition. Are they reliable?

I have firearms for them to lay hands on and fire for familiarization. At some point we'll head to a range.

[shooterrex]

I have a braced Roni and switch between a G19 and a G17. Red dot on it. Rails on the side for a light. Folds and fits in a bag just fine.

The new Keltec sub2k's rotate the red dot out of the way for folding.

 

 

[MtnMike]

First, let me say it's a good thing that you're helping your doc get what will suit them best. Just thinking out loud because I still think a shotgun is the best option for a relatively unskilled shooter.  Don't know if your range is formal with lanes and targets, or less formal and you can set up a variety of types of targets. But most folks are impressed with the effect of a shotgun on a cantaloupe😁 Shoot it a couple of times with a 9mm as well to demonstrate the different effects at 10 yds.  Also, a 20 gauge might be better for these folks than a 12. Wishing I still had the SxS double barrel 20 Savage Fox I killed my first deer with (and dozens of squirrels) back when I was 11-12.  Damn effective gun for a relative novice.  Just line up the two beads and POW! Target is down.  Again just my 2 cents - and that's what most opinions are worth!

[MtnMike]

Also clean the Keltec Sub2K isn't too bad.  And, it's a fun little gun.

 

[392heminut]

On 10/21/2024 at 4:46 PM, Armed Eye Doc said:

If it is available, a Mossberg Shockwave (or the above-mentioned 500 with an adapter) with the 1.75 inch shells should be among the options.  You can get 8-9  birdshot, buckshot or slugs in one.  The recoil is minimal with the short shells.  However, precise aiming is optional except for the slugs.  Ammo is maybe a little more expensive than 9mm SD loads, but practice would be a little less IMO.

You just described my RV gun! I have that exact setup loaded with buckshot!

[BrianK]

So I took my Dr and his wife to the range today. We had the place to ourselves. It was a familiarization session with some of the firearms I suggested for them , basic safety, yada, yada. She had never encountered ANY firearms. He shot .22s as a child, went away for a time and his parents sold all of the firearms, they were gone when he got back, nothing since then, my guess is that he's at least 40 maybe older. 

We met at a LGS so that they could fondle some shotguns. Then bought some 9mm ammo.

Started them out with handguns to show them why something shouldered fired would be better for their use. He understood pretty quickly, she turned out to be Annie Oakley. So much so that I realized I had met my first person in shooting with natural talent. Then we moved on to a sub2000 Gen 2, he loved it. She's slight and smaller than I am and had issues with the stock. Anyone who has seen a child shooting a rifle with an adult stock knows the problem. Had the same issue with the GHM9. So he liked the PCCs and she loved the handguns. 

She commented that she didn't know how much fun it was going to be. I think I made 2 new shooters. Time well spent. She asked how much it costs for a membership to the club. He was impressed by the facilities. 

At least now they have some information to work with to make a better informed decision for their purchases. 

Oh, and I got clear indications that they voted "correctly". But politics wasn't on the agenda.

Edited November 8 by BrianK
it's 2000 and not 200

[Cunuckgaucho]

The best part is they both enjoyed shooting. 

 

[MtnMike]

8 hours ago, BrianK said:

So I took my Dr and his wife to the range today. We had the place to ourselves. It was a familiarization session with some of the firearms I suggested for them , basic safety, yada, yada. She had never encountered ANY firearms. He shot .22s as a child, went away for a time and his parents sold all of the firearms, they were gone when he got back, nothing since then, my guess is that he's at least 40 maybe older. 

We met at a LGS so that they could fondle some shotguns. Then bought some 9mm ammo.

Started them out with handguns to show them why something shouldered fired would be better for their use. He understood pretty quickly, she turned out to be Annie Oakley. So much so that I realized I had met my first person in shooting with natural talent. Then we moved on to a sub2000 Gen 2, he loved it. She's slight and smaller than I am and had issues with the stock. Anyone who has seen a child shooting a rifle with an adult stock knows the problem. Had the same issue with the GHM9. So he liked the PCCs and she loved the handguns. 

She commented that she didn't know how much fun it was going to be. I think I made 2 new shooters. Time well spent. She asked how much it costs for a membership to the club. He was impressed by the facilities. 

At least now they have some information to work with to make a better informed decision for their purchases. 

Oh, and I got clear indications that they voted "correctly". But politics wasn't on the agenda.

You did a good thing!

[BrianK]

Update: It appears that the seeds I planted have started to sprout. I suggested one way to set up a safe room (note: NOT a panic room a safe room is much different) with super bright lights to set up a "wall" of light that the protector with firearm gets behind (also behind cover). Remember the old flash bulb flash photography? Now think instead of a flash, continuous light. Anyway, the week of Veterans Day a manufacturer of such lights had a sale and he bought 2. One with 16k lumens of output and another with 8k both lights have wide angle flood type beams. Perfect.

He mentioned that next on the list were firearms. Also mentioned that he's reading Clive Cussler (?) novels and now he knows what a bullpup and other terms he runs across  mean.

[Sisco]

For her think about a 20 gauge Remington 870 with a buck barrel and a red dot. Just sold one a while back. Can get smaller stocks for those as well. Slugs, buckshot, whatever.

Edited November 29 by Sisco

[shepp]

On 11/29/2024 at 4:58 PM, Sisco said:

For her think about a 20 gauge Remington 870 with a buck barrel and a red dot. Just sold one a while back. Can get smaller stocks for those as well. Slugs, buckshot, whatever.

Was about to say the same, my buddy’s 5’2” wife puts the hurt on deer with her 20ga 

[98Z5V]

I missed this whole topic due to not being here recently, but I'll give my initial $0.02 on home defense. You need to be proficient enough to shoot the center of a doorway, in a real home defense situation.  Nobody but HULK himself comes through walls, anymore - all assailants have to come through a doorway, to get to you. 

No matter what you shoot - doesn't matter - if you can proficiently shoot into the space that encompasses the center of a doorway, proficiently, then you can defend yourself in your home.   Last defense, you will defeat those that have to come through that doorway to get to you...

You're asleep when this happens - the most important room in your house to practice this on - is your own bedroom...   It'll be gross motor skills, at the point this happens - you won't accomplish any sophisticated weapons-manipulation dream, when you get up in the middle of the night, from something like this - you will resort to your lowest level of training, lizard-brain, just what you know and practiced.  If you have no training, or haven't trained, you will fail.

Caliber, gauge, distance...  doesn't matter.  I bet your bedroom door isn't more than 14 feet from your bed, and that would be in a GIANT house with a giant main bedroom...