Working on a PSA PA-10 build

[crimsonfalcon07]

So, I realize that not too many people have these yet and thus there's not a lot of information.  My build for this is probably going to take a while, with the upper coming last.  I'm buying the parts one at a time so I can space out the cost.

 

There's a lot to figure out, and I don't want to buy some parts until I'm sure of parts compatibility.

 

I ordered the stripped lower first.  I'm installing better parts than milspec, so didn't want to just get the basic parts kit, but it looks like I might have to, because some of the stuff is proprietary.

 

I'm going to add in parts cost for my own edification so I can figure out later how much this whole build has set me back (if I dare to look at it).

 

My main goal for this one is accuracy.  I'm not concerning myself with weight at the moment, since I plan on shooting this guy primarily prone supported.  I'm just going to track the build and share what insights I've gleaned, and ask questions as necessary on other parts.

 

So, stripped lower cost 168.99 shipped, plus an extra 35 bucks for the background check and transfer costs (thank you stupid new law in Colorado).

 

I already have a Magpul MOE grip from a previous build that I like just fine, although I may end up changing that.  We'll call it free, because it came with a 49.99 LPK.

 

I also bought a Troy ambi mag release.  I have one on all of my AR's.  As a lefty, I really like that part.  So far it's my favorite of the ambi mag releases.  I overpaid a bunch to get it locally, since my usual places to buy were sold out.  Of course they came back in stock a week later, but hey, what can you do.

 

Chalk up another 65.99 for that part.

 

Next part ordered is the trigger.  I sprang for a Geissele SSA-E.  194 shipped to my door (and not even on sale).

 

Other part I plan on exchanging in the lower is the safety.  I'm planning on a Battle Arms Development safety, although I had briefly been toying with getting the cheaper Strike Industries one and seeing how it is.  It's less than half the price.  But, if I'm getting premium parts for the rest of it, why cheap out on the safety, right?

 

Right now there are lots of questions.

 

So far I've established that the PA-10 is mostly DPMS compatible.  The lower will mate with DPMS Gen 1 uppers, and vice versa.  I'm not sure whether that's high profile or low profile yet (more reading to come).  I gather the Gen 2 is shorter in overall length.

The bolt catch, takedown pins, and buffer tube are all evidently proprietary.  I'm currently trying to get them to sell me the proprietary parts separately, so I don't waste the other parts.  I can't even fathom why they'd sell a lower parts kit without the buffer tube if they don't sell the buffer tube separately and it won't work with other aftermarket parts, and honestly, that strikes me as a stupid idea.  But, hey, I can't complain too much about the price.

 

I've inquired as to what sort of compatibility the buffer tube has; whether we're talking commercial or milspec, etc.  I'm guessing AR-15 stocks will fit, but am awaiting confirmation.  I also suspect that buffer compatibility will be somewhat limited, and probably won't work at all with the JP Captured assembly.  Since, at the moment, they only have a carbine buffer tube out, the PRS stock I'd originally hoped to install will be out.

Once I figure out the stock compatibility, then I'll be able to complete the lower, and can start thinking about the upper.  That's where I run into a lot of confusion.  Due to inexperience with headspacing, etc, I'm torn between buying a complete upper or having the upper assembled and headspaced for me by a barrel manufacturer.  I'm also unsure about length, and compatibility for the handguards.  I'm thinking I'm going to avoid Midwest Industries, as I hear those handguards are more fragile than I'd like.

There are a few builds that look interesting to me, ranging in price from around 700 to 1500.  I think I'd be around the 1300 mark if I buy the parts separately and have a Krieger barrel made for it, and have them headspace and chamber and assemble to the Nickel Boron bolt I'd like to get.

Right now I'm thinking 20" barrel sounds about right.  Fluted or not?  Is that a good length?  Any complete uppers in that range that you'd recommend? I'd like a keymod or similar free-float rail system, at least 12" long.  What about muzzle devices?  Any that particularly stands out?  Thanks in advance for any opinions you can share.  All are welcome, and rest assured I will be doing independent research for anything offered.  I'm taking my time with this, both because of budget and because of parts availability.

When all is said and done, then I get to think about optics.  Right now I'm leaning towards a midrange Leupold or Vortex, but I might cheap out and get the Nikon M-308 that was recommended on the 308AR page while I save up for some really nice glass.  Minimum budget for glass will be around 500, I think.  I'm not sure my marriage will survive spending 1500 or so on glass though.  I'm not really researching that too heavily until I get the upper sorted, however.  That's going to be the biggest single budget item on the build, from what I can see.

[darb]

Good you are checking out this site first ( I wish I had), there are a lot of knowledgeable people hear. My 2 cents: skip the fluted barrel unless you just like the looks as the weight savings from prone target shooting is not much. length: shorter will equal larger sd and more moa. enough to make a difference well that is up to you. I'd say under 700-800 yds go with the 20", once again check the ballistic tables. Speaking of ballistics: Are you sold on the .308?( I have a 24' S/S barrel in 308 )  I am now collecting parts for a  6.5mm .260 Rem, there is also a couple of others in 6.5 that may be of interest. Optics: I could not afford the high dollar glass so I ended up with the Sightron III 6x24-50 2 moa. I also have one on my bolt action 260 Rem. I had a friend with a Weaver Classic  6x24-50 he has on his 308 for about half the price of the Sightron. I liked enough to put on a AR-223.what ever glass you end up with be sure it is going to have enough adjustment to reach the distance you want. My ranges are 800 for the 308, 5-600 on the .223 and 1000-1200 on the 6.5. I do have a service rifle with open sights for real shorter distances ( old age eyes)    Disclaimer: All of the above are from my experience and IMO, if others have different or better thoughts please feel free to state because I can always change mine. Good luck and am looking forward to the progress reports. P.S.check out Bison Armory for barrels and uppers.

[EasyEJL]

purpose, purpose, purpose. What do you intend to use the rifle for? that will make a huge difference in what the optimal parts choices should be.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Thanks for the comments.  I just got done reading the link from Fulton Armory about fluted barrels, and it certainly looks like there's no reason to get one, and many reasons to not get one.  

And yes, I am sold on the .308.  It's a readily available round, and, although there are other rounds that offer better ballistics, they tend to be more expensive and/or harder to come by.  If there's another ammunition shortage, I'd prefer to have rounds that will be easier to find, and .308 or 7.62 were regularly available on local shelves last time.  I am well aware of its shortcomings, but the cost and availability of the round, coupled with the flexibility it offers across multiple platforms, makes me more inclined to go with it.  If I eventually decide I want to do something different, I'll build or buy a new gun for it.

 

Okay, so purpose.  Target shooting.  Weight not really a concern.  I'd like the rifle to be capable of good accuracy out to as far as 1000 yards (but don't really care about further; not sure the cartridge could handle it, and even if it could, I also am not sure that I can).  Probably will be shooting mostly 600-800 yards, however.  I will not likely be hunting with this build, so I'm less concerned with weight and maneuverability.

 

So, I heard back from PSA (already!), and was told that they will not part out the lower parts, so I have to get the full lower build kit when it comes back in stock.  I think I'll just buy it when it does, because everyone that bought a PSA-10 will need one of them.

 

I also asked about the buffer tube compatibility, especially with regards to the possibility of using a PRS stock, and as I surmised, it doesn't look good.  Here's the response I got from PSA:

 

"In regards to the Magpul PRS stock. We currently only use the adjustable Buffer Tube with our AR-10 lower receivers. The PA-10 Buffer Tube is mil-spec diameter, but is longer than a regular buffer tube. So, I am not sure if the Rifle Buffer Extension will work with the lower receiver. In addition to that. our PA-10 Buffer is shorter than a standard carbine length buffer, but is heavier. A Rifle length buffer would be needed with the buffer extension, and we are not sure if that is compatible with the lower either."

 

So I think I'll be going with the ACS-L stock that I used on my last AR-15 build, which I like a lot.

With regards to the barrel length.  I have been doing quite a bit of reading.  The consensus I've seen thus far suggests that out to 600 yards or so, 16" is just fine, or possibly even better.  I want to have the option of shooting further, and am not at all concerned about weight.  So ditch the flutes for sure.  And I've read a number of posts suggesting that a 20" is more flexible than other lengths, although I suppose I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a 22" or 24".  But it doesn't seem like there are significant gains getting 24" as opposed to a 20".

So far I'm looking at Rainier Ultramatch and Krieger if I get the barrel separately.  If I get anything else, it will likely be because it's included in a complete upper build.  I am leaning towards Krieger because I want to have the barrel headspaced and chambered specifically for the aftermarket bolt I end up getting.

There are a few types of builds that look interesting to me.  On the cheap side of things is the Ares Armor Ajax build at 687, but with a 180 day wait and non-refundable, and unknown barrel quality, I'm somewhat hesitant on that one, even though that's a pretty good price.  Also, not sure if it's compatible.  Another complete upper I've looked at that I do like the looks of, is the Fulton Armory Peerless M110.  That's probably on the upper end of what I want to spend.  Another option I've been considering is to get an aftermarket DPMS BCG, the PA-10 stripped upper, assemble that, and get a Krieger barrel, and have Krieger chamber and headspace it to my bolt; maybe even do the full assembly.  I'm looking at the Centurion CMR rail, which looks to be about the ticket for what I want.  Hopefully it will fit on the Krieger barrel; I hear some people have had trouble with their CMR rails.  I'm not sure I like the aesthetics of the Apex rail; verdict is still out on that one.  Do I want a muzzle device of some sort?  What about gas blocks?  All questions for after I finish the lower build.


So right now, my lower is looking as follows:

PA-10 lower (168.99 shipped)

PA-10 lower build kit (149.99 when it comes back in stock)

Troy Ambi magazine release (65)

Battle Arms Development BAD-ASS ambi safety (55?)

Geissele SSA-E - 194

Magpul MOE grip

Magpul ACS-L stock - 75, IIRC.

 

Then I *just* need to figure out the upper and glass.

[Microgunner]

Welcome from Florida.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Thanks for the welcome!

[edgecrusher]

Just my opinion here:

Forgo Ares, way to many negative feedback from people.

Get the PSA upper, it will match up the best and offer you the tightest fit and finish to the lower.

I like your lower choice but.... If you go collapsible, maybe get the CTR with the LaRue riser for better cheek placement with optics. BUT: something with PSA response bothers me, why can't you use a rifle extension? Because they don't?! It sounds like they are idiots, went the Voltr rout and never looked back. I think you'll be fine with rifle length.

I like your barrel choices and 20" will be fine, as will 18 or even 16. Good rail choice too. If you buy a bolt from Rainier when you order a barrel they will headspace for you.

Welcome

[D.R.D.]

I too have spoken with PSA.  It doesn't seem like many of their employees really know that much about their products -  just hired hands to answer phones and process orders.  

 

Where did you hear that Midwest industry handguards are fragile?  Curious.

 

You may want to read these sites and blog series to learn a bit about optics before spending money there:

 

http://opticsthoughts.com/?page_id=476

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/07/01/tactical-scopes-field-test-overview-rifle-scope-line-up/

http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index.php/articles/

https://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/

[edgecrusher]

I'd finish your rifle before you go optics, like you said. It'll be pricey, but worth it in the direction you are going.

My personal opinion on optics is.....

Does your wife have access to guns?

[D.R.D.]

"My personal opinion on optics is..... Does your wife have access to guns?"

LOL!

[edgecrusher]

Hey, gotta be honest! My wife does, and both of my scopes were purchased with nice jewelry and spa days. No questions asked, lucky me, cause she has .45's!

Ior Valdada Trident

Leupold mk4 4.5-14 illuminated tmr reticle.

[Robocop1051]

Where did you hear that Midwest industry handguards are fragile?  Curious.

 

From me.... The Mg alloy tube is very soft. While it should be plenty for a bench rifle, and it is VERY lightweight, I was able to crush the mounting system with just an allen wrench. I take most of the blame, as I kind of gorilla'd the screw.

 

Still, I am used to Daniel Defense and APEX handguards. I am able to beat those like Ray Rice (too soon???) in an elevator.

[unforgiven]

Welcome from Indiana brother.Where did you get that SSA-E for less than $200.00 ???

[D.R.D.]

Robocop,

Are you talking about the MI FF SS Gen2 handguards?

[crimsonfalcon07]

Thanks for the input.  I did indeed find the information about Midwest on here from Robocop, and corroborated from some other forums.

 

My wife does have access to guns (in the USAF), but isn't particularly fond of them.  I buy them with her blessing (and she just bought me a new MP5 clone in .22LR), but she doesn't really understand glass being as expensive as guns yet.  She thought the Leupold Mark AR I bought for my .223 Wylde build was expensive!  Will convert her yet, but for the time being, I'd prefer to keep my glass somewhat on budget.  Not sure I need or want FFP, for instance.

 

unforgiven, I got the trigger at www.manventureoutpost.com.  It's my favorite site for most outdoor gear, etc, and they'll price match.  Great CS too.  I originally had bought the mag release from them (they have it way cheaper than anywhere else), but forgot that I already bought one (oops).  Emailed them, and they switched my order to be for the trigger and billed me the extra as per my request.  Usually takes them a couple days to process and get it out; most orders tend to arrive within a week or faster, but they may not be ideal if you need it RIGHT NOW.  Customer service for me has always been stellar, and prices and selection tend to be hard to beat (especially with that price match guarantee).  Sometimes I wonder how they make a profit, but they keep expanding, so...

I'll be getting most of the parts for this build through them.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Have been doing a lot more reading over the last day.  I think I'm going to take Edgecrusher's advice and just get the PSA upper, and buy the barrel and other parts myself.  I'm really torn between Krieger and Rainier for the barrel.  I don't think I'll be likely to buy both BCG and barrel at the same time, due to the piecemeal nature of the project, so that would put me at getting a Krieger, because if I buy the BCG separately, and the handguard, muzzle device, and gas block and gas tube, and barrel last, I can just send it all in to Krieger and have them assemble it all for me for my peace of mind.  Of course, there's always the possibility of getting it Straightjacketed, if I somehow end up with more money than I know what to do with...

So far, for handguard, I'm thinking Centurion CMR, or the Geissele rail that's due out.

Gas block, maybe the PRI, or the SLR?  Not sure what will fit under the CMR.

Muzzle device:  Better off getting a flash hider (probably one that's compatible with a suppressor, thinking into the future), or the muzzle brake for recoil reduction?

[edgecrusher]

AAC 51T

https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2198

[crimsonfalcon07]

That does look perfect, Edgecrusher!  Many thanks for your sage input.

[crimsonfalcon07]

This one is on hold as evidently virtually all of the upgrade parts I purchased are not compatible with the lower, and the lower appears NOT to be compatible with DPMS uppers either.

At this point, I would recommend any people considering a PSA PA-10 to hold off.  I think this one is going to be a flop.

[darb]

Have been doing a lot more reading over the last day.  I think I'm going to take Edgecrusher's advice and just get the PSA upper, and buy the barrel and other parts myself.  I'm really torn between Krieger and Rainier for the barrel.  I don't think I'll be likely to buy both BCG and barrel at the same time, due to the piecemeal nature of the project, so that would put me at getting a Krieger, because if I buy the BCG separately, and the handguard, muzzle device, and gas block and gas tube, and barrel last, I can just send it all in to Krieger and have them assemble it all for me for my peace of mind.  Of course, there's always the possibility of getting it Straightjacketed, if I somehow end up with more money than I know what to do with...

So far, for handguard, I'm thinking Centurion CMR, or the Geissele rail that's due out.

Gas block, maybe the PRI, or the SLR?  Not sure what will fit under the CMR.

Muzzle device:  Better off getting a flash hider (probably one that's compatible with a suppressor, thinking into the future), or the muzzle brake for recoil reduction?

I have a muzzle brake, adjustable gas block, SSA trigger, PRS stock on my 24" (wished I would have gotten a 20") I did get a Rainier .223 wylde barrel and the bolt they headspaced. I think if you have your own bolt you can send it in to them and they will headspace it for you. I'd think twice about the PSA receiver. (check out some of the reviews from some of the forums out there)

[darb]

I too have spoken with PSA.  It doesn't seem like many of their employees really know that much about their products -  just hired hands to answer phones and process orders.  

 

Where did you hear that Midwest industry handguards are fragile?  Curious.

 

You may want to read these sites and blog series to learn a bit about optics before spending money there:

 

http://opticsthoughts.com/?page_id=476

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/07/01/tactical-scopes-field-test-overview-rifle-scope-line-up/

http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index.php/articles/

https://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/

Nice links. Thanks

[crimsonfalcon07]

Okay, more information.

 

The pivot and takedown pin placement was wrong, and thus the upper rode too low, making the hammer impact the BCG.  They are going to be correcting that issue moving forward, and new lowers will be marked "cal MULTI" instead of 308.

I've also been informed that the rifle buffers and buffer tubes are compatible.

 

They will be sending me a label to return my defective lower for a refund.

 

I've now been told, however, that the uppers are compatible with DPMS LOW profile rails, although they're supposed to be DPMS Gen 1 compatible?  I think I'm just going to have to check myself once I order the upper.

[blue109]

gen 1 DPMS can be low or high. low is the newer standard they went to a few years ago. high is still somewhat common for the smaller brands because they wouldn't/couldn't retool when DPMS made the change.

[survivalshop]

   I think there are three Receiver rail height for DPMS 308's , the  Target Tall one , the early low one ( compared to the Tall Target ) & their newest, lower one . The question is , which are they talking about , when they say low ? Low compared to the Target high rail or low compared to their original low rail height . <dontknow>

 

  There are Threads around here that give the measurements of the latter two , don't see too many of the real high target ones , although they are being used.

[crimsonfalcon07]

So, got the receiver sent back.  No idea when new receivers will be out, so am contemplating the Aero receiver set instead.  Will be making up my mind next month, likely.

 

I've also made a few changes to my list of parts.  I just ordered a NiB bolt carrier group from Primary Arms.  Price seemed right, and they're a good company.  Also decided on the LUTH-AR MBS buttstock.  Got a Seekins mag release button to go with my Troy Ambi mag release, and have the Geissele SSA-E and BAD-ASS safety in as well.

 

I'm still debating what barrel I'm going to get; I'll be sending the upper in to Teludyne, so I need a pretty specific handguard inner diameter as well.  The Centurion won't cut it (and sounds like it won't fit if I get the Aero receiver set anyways); I'm just not sure whether it's worth getting a Krieger or Rainier Ultramatch, since the SJBS process evidently will really reduce multi-round grouping sizes even with a stock barrel.  So maybe get a midgrade Rainier?