Decision Help Required...

[SHOOTER13]

Well...I'm in the market for a 7.62x51mm MSR and would like to elicit some help on the decision from the membership here.

I prefer the Short Stroke Gas Piston over Direct Gas Impingement...and will probably tack on a Leupold optic besides a BUIS system.

Checking all the sites listed here...and keeping in mind my $2,500 max price point...I prefer / but am not stuck on the following platforms:

 

Fulton FAR-308 Lineup { 18.5" Barrel / 1:10 Twist }

http://www.dpmsinc.com/308-RECON_ep_93-1.html

 

DPMS Recon { 16" HBAR /  1:10 Twist }

http://www.dpmsinc.com/308-RECON_ep_93-1.html

 

Remington R25 GII { 20" Barrel / 1:10 Twist }

https://www.remington.com/rifles/modern-sporting/model-r-25-gii/model-r-25-gii

 

I own plenty of rifles: Rem 700 BDL in 7mm Rem Mag...Remington 7600 Pump 30.06 Springfield...M1 Garand...Two Olympic 5.56 AR's...multiple .22 rifles and major caliber handguns.

Really want a nice 7.62 to ring steel at long range and to hunt deer / bear in Pennsylvania...

 

Can I ask YOU what you own and why you made that particular choice...pics and tech data included if you please.

{ Any other manufacturer platforms I may have missed...in my price range / tech points ? }

 

Any and All Help Appreciated.

Thanks...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by SHOOTER13

[jtallen83]

My political feelings force me to lean towards Fulton, that and they have an excellent track record here with other members. 

I own an AR-10B Armalite but recent QC issues prevent me from recommending a new Armalite now. I have a Sig P716 that runs good now but took several trips in and lots of frustration to get there. My favorite 308 AR rifle to shoot right now is a Matrix Aerospace receiver set build, 16 inch barrel with rifle length gas system. Doubt I ever buy a factory made AR again in any caliber, building your own is very rewarding.

[SHOOTER13]

Thanks Ranger...for your service to our country...and your opinion.

Forgot about SIG...looked at Armalite...don't know about building one myself, but that IS an option.

 

Also wanted to add to my above criteria...( Damn EDIT button disappears too fast ) not really set on gas piston setup...and I will be adding a can at some future point. ( Hopefully after the NFA is trashed )

 

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by SHOOTER13

[blue109]

If I didn't plan on tinkering with it I'd give a DPMS G2 a hard look. solid concept, and if it can attract some aftermarket, I can see our big frame guns going extinct eventually.

[survivalshop]

 

15 minutes ago, SHOOTER13 said:

I prefer the Short Stroke Gas Piston over Direct Gas Impingement.

None of those listed are Piston Gas system Rifles . 

 Try POF , Ruger  , Adam Arms ,

[SHOOTER13]

11 minutes ago, SHOOTER13 said:

Copy that...edit below from my post #2 this thread above: Thanks

 

Also wanted to add to my above criteria...( Damn EDIT button disappears too fast ) not really set on gas piston setup...and I will be adding a can at some future point. ( Hopefully after the NFA is trashed )

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by SHOOTER13

[Sisco]

I have Armalite, and that's it. Good rifles, but my newest is 4 years old. I just don't know about their quality right now.

[98Z5V]

6 hours ago, survivalshop said:

 

None of those listed are Piston Gas system Rifles . 

 Try POF , Ruger  , Adam Arms ,

I was no-shiit just gonna say this - thanks for getting there before I did. 

Does Adams Arms make a .308 system?  I wasn't aware that anyone was making an add-on gas system, like the AR15s.  Dunno...

Personal choices being what they are, I'd do the Ruger over the POF, any day of the week. 

Edited February 8, 2017 by 98Z5V

[shepp]

6 hours ago, survivalshop said:

 

None of those listed are Piston Gas system Rifles . 

 Try POF , Ruger  , Adam Arms ,

Good I'm not crazy lol

[survivalshop]

http://www.adamsarms.net/adams-arms-small-frame-308-pbr

http://www.adamsarms.net/adams-arms-small-frame-308-patrol-enhanced

"An upgraded version of the small frame short-stroke piston AR-style rifle"

[survivalshop]

9 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Personal choices being what they are, I'd do the Ruger over the POF, any day of the week. 

Did you watch the video of the Full Auto POF that surpassed all AR's in a round count test & wouldn't stop working , though a little slow in full auto , it still worked , its around here somewhere , someone posted it , I will see if I can find it .

Disclamer , more then likely , the factory went over this rifle for the test & who knows what they did that would differ from a floor model , but maybe not . 

[planeflyer21]

56 minutes ago, survivalshop said:

Did you watch the video of the Full Auto POF that surpassed all AR's in a round count test & wouldn't stop working , though a little slow in full auto , it still worked , its around here somewhere , someone posted it , I will see if I can find it .

Disclamer , more then likely , the factory went over this rifle for the test & who knows what they did that would differ from a floor model , but maybe not . 

I'd agree with that statement.  Both POF and Hogan (which split from POF) had such a hugely crappy reputation with their .308s at local ranges, none of the local shops carry them anymore and the big box stores only carry the 5.56 rifles.

[blue109]

3 hours ago, survivalshop said:

Did you watch the video of the Full Auto POF that surpassed all AR's in a round count test & wouldn't stop working , though a little slow in full auto , it still worked , its around here somewhere , someone posted it , I will see if I can find it .

Disclamer , more then likely , the factory went over this rifle for the test & who knows what they did that would differ from a floor model , but maybe not . 

The guy who owns the big full auto rental range in Vegas probably burns through more rifles and ammo than anybody else around....And he said the gas piston ARs just don't last. He has a few HK416s only because customer's request it but other than that it's DI only. He has some good write ups on that big ar forum.

Edited February 8, 2017 by blue109

[SHOOTER13]

21 hours ago, SHOOTER13 said:

Copy that...edit below from my post #2 this thread above: Thanks

Also wanted to add to my above criteria...( Damn EDIT button disappears too fast ) not really set on gas piston setup...and I will be adding a can at some future point. ( Hopefully after the NFA is trashed )

Understood...read that a GAS PISTON system really beats up the AR platform.

Operating Systems
The AR is a self-loading rifle that performs a basic set of functions without manual assistance from the operator. After the trigger is pressed, the gun must fire a cartridge, extract the fired case, eject it, pick up a fresh cartridge and transfer it from the magazine into the chamber, lock the breech and cock the hammer (or striker) to return the rifle to battery—a round in the chamber, ready to fire with another press of the trigger.

It’s really a straightforward mechanical operation. The best and brightest firearms designers have achieved it for the past 120 years with a variety of ingenious solutions.

Two of those solutions are the direct gas impingement system and the short stroke gas piston system. Eugene Stoner utilized the impingement system in the AR. It works by bleeding propellant gases through a port at the end of the barrel and channeling the gases back through a tube to directly strike, or impinge, a bolt carrier, thereby pushing it rearward to extract and eject the fired case and, as it’s propelled forward by a spring, to strip a fresh round and push it into the barrel’s chamber.

A short stroke gas piston system is what Mikhail Kalashnikov used on his AK-47. The piston system also relies on propellant gases that are bled through a small hole in the barrel, but instead of the gases traveling through a tube to impact a bolt carrier, the gases are contained in a cylinder in which there is a piston, like in a car. The gases push the piston, which in turn is connected by a rod to a bolt carrier that moves rearward to extract and eject the fired case and, moving forward from spring pressure, strip a fresh round from a magazine, chamber it and lock into battery.

What’s causing a fork in the AR road right now is that a number of manufacturers have decided to modify the Stoner design to operate with a piston system instead of an impingement system. The question before the house is: Do we need to fix the AR with a new operating system and, if so, do the new piston systems achieve that remedy?

An Answer In Search Of A Question
The sole claim to fame of a piston system is that it’s more reliable than an impingement system. The reason given is that hot, dirty gases are not spewed into the action of the rifle like the direct impingement system, fouling itself with heat and carbon, depositing black crud all over the bolt carrier. Instead, the gases are contained in a gas cylinder which is self-cleaning.

No one asserts that piston systems are more accurate or more durable, just that they’re more reliable because the bolt carrier is not caked with fouling and subjected to scalding heat.

Advocates of the piston system are quick to ask, “Why would you dump hot, dirty gases where your rifle feeds?”

There’s no question that heat and fouling are highly detrimental to moving parts in a firearm. The solution, however, does not necessarily require redesigning the whole gun. Fouling problems can be avoided quite easily with a marvelous little thing called lubrication.

“Keep her wet. That’s how you run an AR,” a hard-bitten range master once told me. “I don’t care what you squirt in there—BreakFree, WD-40, lime juice. It doesn’t matter. Soak her good.”

Unintended Consequences
Even if you take the argument of the piston system at face value—that it’s more reliable—you still have the law of unintended consequences to deal with. First, piston guns generate more felt recoil than impingement guns (although that’s not a huge detriment since we’re talking about a 5.56 mm here, a “poodle shooter” as Col. Cooper sniffed).

More importantly, however, a piston system alters the mechanics and timing of an AR in a manner that a growing number of shooters are claiming is harmful to the gun.

There are new systems being developed, tested and marketed now, but generally the problem is that a piston system is attempting to retroactively adapt a bolt carrier that was designed to function with direct impingement.

What we’re seeing are piston systems substituted for the gas tube of an impingement system by simply inserting a piston into the mechanism. The same buffer system is used to return the bolt carrier into battery, the same geometry of the bolt carrier is utilized and the same timing of the cycle rate is retained.

The only difference, really, is that a piston system gives the bolt carrier a mighty whack with a piston instead of blowing gas into it. The geometry is the same. The area of the bolt carrier that is being impacted by the piston is where the gas key would be on an impingement system. In fact, many of the piston systems simply replace the gas key on the bolt carrier with a flat-faced nubbin that is the anvil to the piston’s hammer.

This protrusion is attached to the bolt carrier well ahead (toward the muzzle) of its center of gravity. Going back to see-saw 101, we realize that if a force is applied well in front of a pivot, what happens? The rear tilts.

This see-saw effect is causing bolt carriers to tilt within the receiver, retarding their movement and imparting a non-linear force to the assembly. Stoner did not design the bolt carrier group to be hammered.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/4/13/ar-operating-systems-gas-impingement-vs-piston/

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2017 by SHOOTER13

[SHOOTER13]

Can I ask YOU what you own and why you made that particular choice...

 

Pics and tech data included if you please. { Any other manufacturer platforms I may have missed...in my price range / tech points ? }

 

Any and All Help Appreciated.

Thanks...

[Magwa]

Ok you mentioned Hunting, ok you got it that is what i do I am a hunter first, steel stumps tannerite is all second, I bought a DPMS 5 years ago took it out of the box fed it a steady diet of old surplus ammo and oil(mobile one synthetic) and have NEVER had a hickup NONE zero, Nada.... so then with the help of the enabling bastards here on this sight I then started making it my own, I changed the gas block to a A2sight block combo, put a apex Gator grip forend on it changed the stock to a Luth skeloton,and a rock river arms National Match Trigger I like a 2 stage trigger for long range shooting, I shoot Barnes TTSX 168 bullets into one shot holes at 100 years and have killed 4 elk,and 5 deer with it from 40 yards to 346 yards zero issues now my gun weighs 8lbs 8 oz with no ammo in it. I also use a Vortex Diamond back scope 4x14 Mill dot reticle....and I just added a Atlas Bipod but you will get the idea from the photos

[mrmackc]

DPMS 308LR original except for trigger, charging handle,  Tubb spring, butt plate sling swivel and scope. Also Springfield NM M1A with scope. Never had a hiccup from either shoot Remington and Federal OTM and LC commercial. Also have a Ruger Mini-14 and other bolt and lever centerfire. I shoot what I like and like what I shoot or I don't keep it.

Edited February 8, 2017 by mrmackc

[SHOOTER13]

Thanks guys...that's the kind of info I've been looking for.

[edgecrusher]

I have three .308 ar rifles. Building one- Mega Maten. One DI - LaRue OBR. Unbelievable, pricey but worth every penny. But the one you may be most interested in- PWS214 (gen 1) gas piston. Good accuracy, reasonably light, great all around rifle.

 

https://primaryweapons.com/store/product-category/firearms/mk2-mod-1/mk2-mod-1-rifles/

[Sisco]

To throw some fuel on the fire, the thread link below was started by mrraley, Shooter13. If you haven't read it I suggest you do. He worked as an Armorer for Armalite, and taught Armorer courses to gunsmiths on Armalite systems. You may find of interest his feelings on DI versus pistons. Key on debate to go to the thread.

 

[98Z5V]

16 minutes ago, Sisco said:

To throw some fuel on the fire, the thread link below was started by mrraley, Shooter13. If you haven't read it I suggest you do. He worked as an Armorer for Armalite, and taught Armorer courses to gunsmiths on Armalite systems.

 

He was the Master Armorer at Armalite for years.  THE Man. 

[Sisco]

1 hour ago, 98Z5V said:

He was the Master Armorer at Armalite for years.  THE Man. 

[SHOOTER13]

Thanks for the link Sisco...

[unforgiven]

Fulton Armory has great products.

[mrmackc]

On 2/8/2017 at 0:17 PM, SHOOTER13 said:

Understood...read that a GAS PISTON system really beats up the AR platform.

Operating Systems
The AR is a self-loading rifle that performs a basic set of functions without manual assistance from the operator. After the trigger is pressed, the gun must fire a cartridge, extract the fired case, eject it, pick up a fresh cartridge and transfer it from the magazine into the chamber, lock the breech and cock the hammer (or striker) to return the rifle to battery—a round in the chamber, ready to fire with another press of the trigger.

It’s really a straightforward mechanical operation. The best and brightest firearms designers have achieved it for the past 120 years with a variety of ingenious solutions.

Two of those solutions are the direct gas impingement system and the short stroke gas piston system. Eugene Stoner utilized the impingement system in the AR. It works by bleeding propellant gases through a port at the end of the barrel and channeling the gases back through a tube to directly strike, or impinge, a bolt carrier, thereby pushing it rearward to extract and eject the fired case and, as it’s propelled forward by a spring, to strip a fresh round and push it into the barrel’s chamber.

A short stroke gas piston system is what Mikhail Kalashnikov used on his AK-47. The piston system also relies on propellant gases that are bled through a small hole in the barrel, but instead of the gases traveling through a tube to impact a bolt carrier, the gases are contained in a cylinder in which there is a piston, like in a car. The gases push the piston, which in turn is connected by a rod to a bolt carrier that moves rearward to extract and eject the fired case and, moving forward from spring pressure, strip a fresh round from a magazine, chamber it and lock into battery.

What’s causing a fork in the AR road right now is that a number of manufacturers have decided to modify the Stoner design to operate with a piston system instead of an impingement system. The question before the house is: Do we need to fix the AR with a new operating system and, if so, do the new piston systems achieve that remedy?

An Answer In Search Of A Question
The sole claim to fame of a piston system is that it’s more reliable than an impingement system. The reason given is that hot, dirty gases are not spewed into the action of the rifle like the direct impingement system, fouling itself with heat and carbon, depositing black crud all over the bolt carrier. Instead, the gases are contained in a gas cylinder which is self-cleaning.

No one asserts that piston systems are more accurate or more durable, just that they’re more reliable because the bolt carrier is not caked with fouling and subjected to scalding heat.

Advocates of the piston system are quick to ask, “Why would you dump hot, dirty gases where your rifle feeds?”

There’s no question that heat and fouling are highly detrimental to moving parts in a firearm. The solution, however, does not necessarily require redesigning the whole gun. Fouling problems can be avoided quite easily with a marvelous little thing called lubrication.

“Keep her wet. That’s how you run an AR,” a hard-bitten range master once told me. “I don’t care what you squirt in there—BreakFree, WD-40, lime juice. It doesn’t matter. Soak her good.”

Unintended Consequences
Even if you take the argument of the piston system at face value—that it’s more reliable—you still have the law of unintended consequences to deal with. First, piston guns generate more felt recoil than impingement guns (although that’s not a huge detriment since we’re talking about a 5.56 mm here, a “poodle shooter” as Col. Cooper sniffed).

More importantly, however, a piston system alters the mechanics and timing of an AR in a manner that a growing number of shooters are claiming is harmful to the gun.

There are new systems being developed, tested and marketed now, but generally the problem is that a piston system is attempting to retroactively adapt a bolt carrier that was designed to function with direct impingement.

What we’re seeing are piston systems substituted for the gas tube of an impingement system by simply inserting a piston into the mechanism. The same buffer system is used to return the bolt carrier into battery, the same geometry of the bolt carrier is utilized and the same timing of the cycle rate is retained.

The only difference, really, is that a piston system gives the bolt carrier a mighty whack with a piston instead of blowing gas into it. The geometry is the same. The area of the bolt carrier that is being impacted by the piston is where the gas key would be on an impingement system. In fact, many of the piston systems simply replace the gas key on the bolt carrier with a flat-faced nubbin that is the anvil to the piston’s hammer.

This protrusion is attached to the bolt carrier well ahead (toward the muzzle) of its center of gravity. Going back to see-saw 101, we realize that if a force is applied well in front of a pivot, what happens? The rear tilts.

This see-saw effect is causing bolt carriers to tilt within the receiver, retarding their movement and imparting a non-linear force to the assembly. Stoner did not design the bolt carrier group to be hammered.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/4/13/ar-operating-systems-gas-impingement-vs-piston/

 

 

 

There is another missing factor in modifying a D.I. system to a piston system. The action of the D.I. gas pressure acting on the bolt to prevent prematurely  unlocking which is caused by the expanding gas pressure pushing on the front of the bolt which allows the cam pin to delay rotating the bolt into an unlocked condition until the pressure is reduced in the chamber thusly reducing stress on the. locking lugs.