Robocop1051 Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 Don't judge me.... I have a project plan, but I need some input from y'all How long should I make it? 20"?? 22"??? 24"???? This is 100% for showing off... I'm thinking "go big or go home". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 Then 24", with Rifle +2" gas, brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Cross Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 .224 Valkyrie? Next you'll tell us you're getting into vaping..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsquared Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Matt.Cross said: .224 Valkyrie? Next you'll tell us you're getting into vaping..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ar-mountaineer Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 I’ve been looking into one to make into a coyote gun. In WV you have to use a 22 cal to hunt coyotes at night. What I’ve found is that a 22” barrel is about where it is best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robocop1051 Posted February 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Matt.Cross said: .224 Valkyrie? Next you'll tell us you're getting into vaping..... Oh boy, oh boy, I am going to make you feel like a jerk when I reveal my plan. only then will you see why it absolutely HAS to be a.224 Valk @Robert@FULL30 keep watching this thread. You and I are going to get a lot of recognition for this plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 3 hours ago, Robocop1051 said: Oh boy, oh boy, I am going to make you feel like a jerk when I reveal my plan. only then will you see why it absolutely HAS to be a.224 Valk @Robert@FULL30 keep watching this thread. You and I are going to get a lot of recognition for this plan. It's the .224 SUPER Valkyrie?... Should I edit this, later?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 4 hours ago, ar-mountaineer said: I’ve been looking into one to make into a coyote gun. In WV you have to use a 22 cal to hunt coyotes at night. What I’ve found is that a 22” barrel is about where it is best. I have your answer then, and it's in the form of a 12.5" Grendel pistol. Well above the .22-cal limit at 6.5mm, and easily accurate enough to hunt a coyote at 500 yards, when you consider a 5" vital zone and a 10" target (height of midsection, top to bottom). Easy to range with if you're using a mil scope, with an average coyote being 18" high at the shoulder, from the ground. Every 18" target is exactly one mil in the scope at 500 yards. If that coyote is 2 mils high at the shoulder when you spot him, he's 250 yards away. 4 mils high, 125 yards. Blam, done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ar-mountaineer Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, 98Z5V said: I have your answer then, and it's in the form of a 12.5" Grendel pistol. Well above the .22-cal limit at 6.5mm, and easily accurate enough to hunt a coyote at 500 yards, when you consider a 5" vital zone and a 10" target (height of midsection, top to bottom). Easy to range with if you're using a mil scope, with an average coyote being 18" high at the shoulder, from the ground. Every 18" target is exactly one mil in the scope at 500 yards. If that coyote is 2 mils high at the shoulder when you spot him, he's 250 yards away. 4 mils high, 125 yards. Blam, done. 6.5mm is too large a caliber for it. I have to stay 22 cal or below at night Edited February 26, 2019 by ar-mountaineer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) Holy CRAP!!!! I've never seen anything like that... I can use whatever caliber necessary here (AZ), except no FMJ rounds, and I can't use ANY lights... Hey, that says "handguns are legal..." Edited February 26, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ar-mountaineer Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 5 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: Holy CRAP!!!! I've never seen anything like that... I can use whatever caliber necessary here (AZ), except no FMJ rounds, and I can't use ANY lights... Hey, that says "handguns are legal..." Yes, handguns legal but still must fall below 22 cal. My original post before edit said no handguns but then I actually read what I took a screen shot of and corrected what I stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mineralman55 Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) I've been reading up on the .224 Valkyrie, just because I may want to try building something new (to replace all the guns that fell into the lake in that boating accident.) This was an interesting article on barrel length versus velocity. A cursory look at the data indicated to me the velocity began to drop off below 22" in length, however, a more detailed look may be in order. If I ever get around to building one of these, I'll probably stick to a 22" barrel just to be a little more convenient to tote around. The more I read about this cartridge, the more it seems to have teething pains. Many users report they can either get high velocity and poorer accuracy, or better accuracy and lower velocities. Also, a lot of folks mention crushing powders when reloading and pressure problems showing up when using the recommended charges and the recommended case OAL. Guys are getting better accuracy using longer than the recommended COAL numbers. Varget seems to be the powder that produces more consistent and better results, but any of the medium-burn powders used in the .308 gas guns seems to work. When finally worked out, this cartridge is going to be the cat's meow. https://rifleshooter.com/2018/02/224-valkyrie-effect-of-barrel-length-on-velocity/ Edited February 26, 2019 by mineralman55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNP Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 You're like the poster child for the ADD Firearms Manufacturer. No more projects until you finish ten of the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robocop1051 Posted February 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 4 hours ago, DNP said: You're like the poster child for the ADD Firearms Manufacturer. No more projects until you finish ten of the others. Hahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert@FULL30 Posted February 26, 2019 Report Share Posted February 26, 2019 8 hours ago, DNP said: You're like the poster child for the ADD Firearms Manufacturer. No more projects until you finish ten of the others. I asked him to focus...all I heard was squirrel and poof, he was gone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 Rob, now that I know more after we talked earlier I vote a 22.4” barrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 I vote 21 3/4 inch. "But no bit of information was, Virgil believes, more valuable than a little advice Jim Gilmore passed along. Jim said a barrel MUST be 21 3/4” long for optimum accuracy. That precise length, he stated, sets up a vibration pattern that duplicates well from shot to shot. Virgil faithfully followed that advice on his guns. " Quoted from Secrets of the Houston Warehouse; http://2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-by-dave-scott-precision-shooting-magazine-special-edition-1-1993.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, jtallen83 said: I vote 21 3/4 inch. ^^^ This. Edited February 27, 2019 by 98Z5V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lane Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, 98Z5V said: 1 hour ago, jtallen83 said: I vote 21 3/4 inch. ^^^ This. I want to believe this; but from a scientific perspective I beg to differ. The resonance set up by a shot in a barrel depends on the lead, the explosion speed and pressure, twist, lands/grooves, the projectile weight; as well as the total barrel weight/profile. That 21 3/4 is absolutely a great number for some build, but you might want to tune it based on all those other variables. You can start by finding the resonant frequency of the barrel you are starting with; just bang on it. I don't know if it should be tuned to resonance, or a far from it as possible though. This was a fantastic read; but much like too many mythbusters episodes; it misses the wide and deep scientific analysis to authenticate results. Only 36 shooters were invited and tested here? I wouldn't even consider a gun sample size less than 100... All that said; my 7.62x39 barrel is 21.5", and it blows my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98Z5V Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 That might have been 36 shooters - but it was way more than 100 guns, I believe. What they achieved inside that warehouse was a completely perfect shooting condition, that could be repeated anytime. The data they amassed was incredible. The changes they were able to make to each rifle, over time, and replicate the shooting conditions is what the Golden Egg is in that. Due to word-of-mouth, only, it was 36 shooters - 36 of the best shooters that any one person could invite... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 7 hours ago, Lane said: I want to believe this; but from a scientific perspective I beg to differ. 7 hours ago, Lane said: it misses the wide and deep scientific analysis to authenticate results. Do you have a better source with more in depth testing? The rifles and shooters that did show up there had already done hundreds if not thousands of hours of testing. Some of the worlds best shooters using rifles built by the some of the worlds best gunsmiths shooting in as close to perfect conditions as possible.....but alas there is no spreadsheet full of data that can be analyzed so it must not be authentic. Please do the shooting world a favor and bust this myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lane Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 5 hours ago, jtallen83 said: Do you have a better source with more in depth testing? No better source unfortunately. I simply read through that, and didn't see an answer, or reasoning behind the stated length. I fully suspect that length is close to the reality in terms of finding what works best; but without any evidence to back it up... I would personally want to see data from lengths like 21.850", 21.765", 21.755", etc. before making a judgement call. Because of the range of calibers discussed, I have difficultly believing resonance has anything to do with it; but that's pure supposition on my part based on the information provided. 5 hours ago, jtallen83 said: but alas there is no spreadsheet full of data that can be analyzed so it must not be authentic. This is where that barrel length data falls flat on it's face... It's not about authenticity; but providing backup, or proof supporting a theory. It seems like they started this process for fun, and found some interesting correlation between length and accuracy at the end of it all. Unfortunately without rigorously testing around that length, it would be tough to determine what they were seeing at that time. For all we know, there were a few purpose built target guns that happened to have 21.750" barrels. There may not be a spreadsheet; but I suspect someone kept a notebook. The read certainly does provide a great starting point for future research, and access to the numbers would make that much easier to perform. Too bad guns are so scary these days; I can think of a number of indoor locations where this kind of testing could have been done in the 1970s, and would be absolutely unacceptable now. I will keep this in mind for future builds, but with the much smaller sample size I could provide; I'm not sure it would result in much scientific value. I can ask about using a private facility when the weather gets nicer; but I would still need a few purpose build instruments with greater than 21.5" barrels to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lane Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 11 hours ago, jtallen83 said: Please do the shooting world a favor and bust this myth. I thought a lot more about this today, and read the article again carefully. Years ago target shooting was a sport available to college students, and you could carry a gun around on campus... I would absolutely pay tuition again to do an independent study if that were possible now. My next build is only missing a barrel, so I'll do my best to play ball with this one. My first attempts at securing three long barrels for testing were not fruitful. Green Mountain sells a 21.5", and said they only fill custom orders in quantities of 100 or more. I think if I get in touch with the right person I might be able to make a good case though. Outside of that, the cheapest custom barrel I could find is about $400; so buying multiples wouldn't be quite as cost effective. I would prefer to order a reference barrel at 21.750", and two 22.000" to cut down for testing. I read over the part about cartridge preparation carefully, and will need a case neck trimmer apparently. I've had this odd block of cement in the back yard near my shooting range for years; it only weighs 450 pounds, but should be a reasonable approximation. It is the perfect shape for the lead sled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtallen83 Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 5 hours ago, Lane said: There may not be a spreadsheet; but I suspect someone kept a notebook. What are the odds they shared all their information with their competition, slim to none I think. 4 minutes ago, Lane said: so I'll do my best to play ball with this one. Not that I won't be very interested in your results but you will have a pretty small sample size and it doesn't sound like you can replicate the environmental conditions. I have always been curious how the receiver and the extension on AR's would change resonance of the same length barrel. 8 minutes ago, Lane said: My first attempts at securing three long barrels for testing were not fruitful. X-Caliber makes custom barrels, might be worth calling, just don't mention 308AR.com they got roasted here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterrex Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 Browning had the BOSS system a few years back.you could adjust the muzzle device to vary the barrel length and change barrel harmonics. Not really changing the barrel length but changing the harmonics. It might be easier to test that way I sets of buying a bunch of barrels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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