Magazine Hoarding

[Cliff R]

Some of the Military brass I've ran into over the years isn't worth the effort to reload it.  I had saved up quite a bit of 308 brass from our days on the range with the M-60.  Can't even remember who made it at the moment, but when I built my first 308-AR I decided to reload some of it. 

The primer pockets were crimped so hard in that chit that even taking a pocket knife and chamfering the entrance AFTER cleaning/reaming it some with my deburring tool you couldn't get a primer to go into that junk with a flat punch and a BFH.

I'd "munch" about 4 out of 10 primers trying to get them set to depth.  The brass was also tougher than nails and thick making it difficult to size and trim to length.  I suppose the "loose" specs of the M-60's chamber didn't help that scenario but I gave up messing with it and round filed it.

In contrast the Lake City Match brass I had saved from my days shooting High Power Matches was superb!  No issues anyplace and I even ran some thru a 7mm-08 die and necked it on down to .243 for my Varmint rifle.  Those were some of the most accurate loads I ever put thru that rifle loaded with the Match brass and H414.

I will admit that I haven't been saving the .223 and 5.56 brass until recently as it's been cheaper to buy than to reload.....but changing the game there and starting to fill some ammo boxes with it just in case..........

[98Z5V]

15 hours ago, Cliff R said:

Some of the Military brass I've ran into over the years isn't worth the effort to reload it.  I had saved up quite a bit of 308 brass from our days on the range with the M-60.  Can't even remember who made it at the moment, but when I built my first 308-AR I decided to reload some of it. 

The primer pockets were crimped so hard in that chit that even taking a pocket knife and chamfering the entrance AFTER cleaning/reaming it some with my deburring tool you couldn't get a primer to go into that junk with a flat punch and a BFH.

 

for those things, Cliff, I use a Lyman VLD inner chamfer tool - that's supposed to be for case NECKS...  I hit those nasty-crimped primer pockets with that thing for a good 3 or 4 twists - and that crimp, and all evidence of it, are long gone.  Primers go in after that.   This is the tool:

https://www.lymanproducts.com/case-prep-multi-tool

[Cliff R]

Cool, thanks for the link....

[dpete]

13 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

for those things, Cliff, I use a Lyman VLD inner chamfer tool - that's supposed to be for case NECKS...  I hit those nasty-crimped primer pockets with that thing for a good 3 or 4 twists - and that crimp, and all evidence of it, are long gone.  Primers go in after that.   This is the tool:

https://www.lymanproducts.com/case-prep-multi-tool

Or you can go the power tool route and modify 98's idea.  Take the pictured large and small pocket reamers and cleaners and screw them into the correctly sized aluminum coupler from any hardware store. 

To get this^      If you have a benchtop drill press you can then chuck those into the press, lay the press on its side, run it at its slowest speed and commence to power reaming those primer crimps out and cleaning pockets.  It also works with the drill press standing up but then you are pushing the brass upward instead of from right to left.  Wear a rubber coated glove on the hand you hold the brass with for a solid grip.  You can ream pockets as fast as you can feed brass from one hand to the other.  Your wrist will thank you after not having to twist 3 or 4 times each for hundreds of pieces of brass.    Just sayin'

Edited April 11, 2021 by dpete

[Magwa]

If anyone see's or can beg borrow or steal any Berger 140 grain Target Hybrid 6.5 bullets please just buys them for me and contact me I will pay you with bonus.....

[Steve crawford]

I have a Lyman case prep station.  It will remove the crimp clean the pocket and uniform them in just a few seconds.  All you have to do is hold on to the case.  I also have the RCBS Bench primer pocket swager.  All you have to do with that thing is have a STRONG arm and wear a glove to make primers slide into a pocket like a hot knife through butter.  The glove is to help to not have a blister in your palm after about 100 military 5.56 cases.  I like to use the swager because it doesn't remove any metal.  😊😊😊

 

  Steve

Edited April 11, 2021 by Steve crawford

[dpete]

12 minutes ago, Steve crawford said:

I have a Lyman case prep station. 

I have the same Lyman case prep.  Its slow compared to the drill press.  I primarily use it for chamfering now.

[Steve crawford]

I am old so slow works for me.  My biggest problem is these old hands lock up or give out before I get through with the cases.  I use mine for chamfering also so it is as simple as hitting 3 more stations.  As a song I heard one time  It's a drag getting old.   About 10 + years with a failing heart and the a heart transplant 7 1/2 years ago.  The damage was already done to the body. Now I want to do things that my body just won't do as fast as I would like.  I won't give up just take more time and tech to do things.  😁😁😁

         Steve

Edited April 12, 2021 by Steve crawford

[Cliff R]

I've worked with Military crimped brass for decades.  That particular batch of 308 brass I tried to reload was crimped so hard you had to chamfer the case entrance 1/3rd of it's depth plus ream the pockets out.

I moved my primer pocket tool from the trimmer to my Dewalt drill to speed things up.

In the end I was still munching some primers trying to get them seated so gave up on it.  I ended up buying some new Winchester brass someplace and moved forward.  At that time I was working up a load with Varget and Barnes 175 grain hunting bullets so just better all the way around to forget about trying to use Military cases in the first place. 

On a good note I was at Cabellas yesterday and snagged an Anderson AR-15 lower.  Haven't seen one anyplace in at least 6 months.  Maybe things are opening up a bit there as well?......

[392heminut]

On 4/10/2021 at 4:09 AM, Cliff R said:

Some of the Military brass I've ran into over the years isn't worth the effort to reload it.  I had saved up quite a bit of 308 brass from our days on the range with the M-60.  Can't even remember who made it at the moment, but when I built my first 308-AR I decided to reload some of it. 

The primer pockets were crimped so hard in that chit that even taking a pocket knife and chamfering the entrance AFTER cleaning/reaming it some with my deburring tool you couldn't get a primer to go into that junk with a flat punch and a BFH.

 

I had just the opposite experience! I have a friend who is a machinist at White Sands Missile Range and he got me a bucket of W-W 7.62 brass that had been fired through an M-60. The primer pockets on that stuff were so loose I ended up taking a small pin punch and going through the flash hole on each case after priming them and pushing on the primer to see if it would stay in. I ended up schitcanning about 40% of that brass!

[392heminut]

On 4/9/2021 at 9:58 PM, 98Z5V said:

  I need to contact Hodgdon direct...  

Does any vendor sell powder in 55 gal drums?...  

[Belt Fed]

13 minutes ago, 392heminut said:

I'm thinking he may be short on powder for the amount of brass he has with that drum. 

[Tack14]

Yeah I really wish I had bought more of the Duramag stainless mags when I saw them out there a little while back.  I got a few but not as many as I'd like to have.

It is crazy whats going on out there.  I remember what it was like after Sandy Hoax but this seems to be worse.

Wish I could find some small pistol and small pistol mag primers but haven't been having much luck.

Know what you guys mean about mil 7.62 brass not always being good for reloading.

Back in 90's I guess I got sorta lucky stumbling across some GI lake city 7.62 once-fired brass from a metals company, they were one of the buyers in the rotation of who had a contract with the military bases around the area to buy their range brass, I think they were melting it back down for brass recycling.  Anyway I was in there for something and they had a 55gal drum open just full of it.  I had JUST started getting into 308 reloading for y M14 (Springfield M1-A) at the time.  I think they ended up selling it to me for $3.50/pound which worked out pretty good for how many pieces of brass per pound.

Some of it had been fired in M60's but the headspace etc on them was not as bad as some I have seen since.  Some had definitely been fired in M14's, there is a certain ding pattern you'll usually see just below the shoulder on those. 🙂

I ended up having some very very accurate handloads with that USGI brass, shot up the last of it I had a few years back.  That was memorable for me because for rapid fire strings of 5 at 50 yards with the old NM/2A sights most of the hits were touching each other.  This was ammo I had stored in ammo can's since the 90's, and I was impressed how well it had kept over ~20 years.  I had starting working on "modernizing" that M14 (M1-A, really) with a Troy MCS stock a little later on but  have since realized, if you want a 308 AR then build a 308 AR and let your M14's be M14's. That rifle is going back to the way it was in the good old days.

FWIW I had the sizing die set to where it was sizing the Lake City brass down to where it read +7 on my RCBS 308 chamber/headspace gauge set. This was a 1961 USGI M14 battle rifle barrel so they were a little long/bigger chambers, so at +7 the rounds fit "just right" and cycled perfectly.  (like you would expect rounds reading +0 on the  gauge to fit in a match barrel's chamber).  40.5 grains of Accurate 2460 with 168gr Sierra matchking, right around 2600fps MV and offhand I don't remember where I was seating to on the gauge, but it was typical seating depth..  But that was one accurate load.  I had been working on IMR4895 loads too at the time but was so impressed with the grouping with the 2460 when I started "getting close" I just ordered a bunch of 2460 and never looked back

Later on I bought some more mil 7.62 brass, it had IVI headstamps (apparently came from Canadian mil) and there was also some of soemthing else I can't remember -- but that brass needed a LOT more love.  And the case heads had these "bolt imprints" on them I didn't like too.  I actually sort of moved on and figured I would save working on that lot of brass for a much rainier day, and probably for blasting ammo (147 FMJBT) load work.  Never bought from that guy again, it was supposed to be USGI brass and all cleaned up, decapped, and decrimped.  It wasn't.  Paid a lot of $ for shipping on that.

I do still have some of that old Lake City brass around somehwere.  Should find it here soon. 🙂

 

[98Z5V]

I love Lake City brass, man - it just works, all the time.  Even if it's got the "4-corner crimp" on it, you can get that out pretty easy, and that brass is excellent. 

[Cliff R]

+2

Going from memory Lake City match ammo was used at every match I participated in during the 1980's.  They set out a BIG pile of it and everyone stepped up and grabbed your allotment of it before heading to the range.  I wished I would have saved more of it.

All of the early 9mm ammo was stamped TZZ, from Israeli Industries.  It was DIRECTLY responsible for blowing up the early M-9 pistol...IMHO.  For the record I discovered the issues with it and actually filed a beneficial suggestion thru the chain of command to have it checked out before we continued to use it.  It showed up in 64 round boxes, not 50 rounds, that puzzled me at the time but later I realized that they most likely intended it for loading 32 round Uzi magazines...DUH?  At about the same time several service members were injured when their M-9 pistols failed and the slides came back and hit them (pretty sure that's what happened but going from memory here).  This was in the mid 1980's.

That TZZ chit was really "hot" and produced a sizeable "fireball" at the muzzle during night firing, I noted this in my suggestion that have it checked out. 

It was promptly replaced with WW 9mm ammo in 50 round boxes.  To this day I doubt if there was really anything wrong with the early M-9 pistols but the modifications were probably for the better.

The M-9 is a pistol you love to hate.  Ugly as chit, and double to single action with a "de-cocking" lever so HUGE transition from the first round fired to the rest of the magazine.  They are surprisingly accurate and DEAD SOLID reliable.   I could fire the entire PPC course from the 50 yard line and shoot in the 220-230's out of a possible 250, those guns just ran and if you did your part the rounds would be where you wanted them.   Back then with our aging and ailing arsenal of 45's in the Armory many loose as a goose and starting to experience numerous failures to feed/eject the timing was impeccably good for the new Beretta's. 

I can't ever remember running a course of fire with the 45's without some "issues" someplace on the line, and new shooters put so many rounds into the dirt the earthworms were putting waving white flags in protest!  With considerably less recoil and bullets exiting the barrel much quicker I was able to get a LOT more inexperience shooters qualified using less ammo, and time.  For the next 18 years or so I was responsible for training thousands of active duty and reserve personnel, and can count on one hand how many problems we had with the M-9 pistols on the firing line.  Two or three of those being ammo related, so for sure the Beretta was a good choice for the Military as far as durability, reliability was concerned.

Well, there's my history lesson for the day and dating myself at the same time!......LOL......Cliff

Edited April 14, 2021 by Cliff R

[Armed Eye Doc]

Great story Cliff. 

[Cliff R]

Thanks, some of it could be off slightly as it has been quite a few years ago and these days I have bad cases of CRS and even worse cases of DGS!......LOL....

 

[Sisco]

11 hours ago, Cliff R said:

All of the early 9mm ammo was stamped TZZ, from Israeli Industries.  It was DIRECTLY responsible for blowing up the early M-9 pistol...OMHO.  For the record I discovered the issues with it and actually filed a beneficial suggestion thru the chain of command to have it checked out before we continued to use it.  It showed up in 64 round boxes, not 50 rounds, that puzzled me at the time but later I realized that they most likely intended it for loading 32 round Uzi magazines...DUH?  At about the same time several service members were injured when their M-9 pistols failed and the slides came back and hit them (pretty sure that's what happened but going from memory here).  This was in the mid 1980's.

 

One of those accidents happened to a Navy Seal and ended up with them adopting the Sig P226 in the Beretta’s place.

[98Z5V]

15 hours ago, Cliff R said:

All of the early 9mm ammo was stamped TZZ, from Israeli Industries.  It was DIRECTLY responsible for blowing up the early M-9 pistol...IMHO.  For the record I discovered the issues with it and actually filed a beneficial suggestion thru the chain of command to have it checked out before we continued to use it.  It showed up in 64 round boxes, not 50 rounds, that puzzled me at the time but later I realized that they most likely intended it for loading 32 round Uzi magazines...DUH?  At about the same time several service members were injured when their M-9 pistols failed and the slides came back and hit them (pretty sure that's what happened but going from memory here).  This was in the mid 1980's.

I hated the Beretta M9, for the reasons you stated, plus more.  Decocker and safety on the slide is just stupid = it belongs on the frame, not the slide, and the decocker is an added safety feature that wasn't even necessary.  Beretta just complicated shiit with complicated shiit, coming up with that one - on the whim of some dipshiit in the Army that "thought it was a good idea, for safety..."  The decocker sucks.  Cocks. 

Beretta had a big problem with the M9.  They stated slide-life at 5,000 rounds to Big Army.  High-round testing showed that this wasn't true, and slides were coming apart.  But, Big Army already bought the gun.  Announcements were made that slide-life was 2500 rounds - and slides were still coming apart.  Slide-life announcements made again that the new slide-life was 1250 rounds.  Once a gun hit the slide-life round count, the slide was replaced - no more slides came apart after 1250 rounds, with slide replacement. 

The problem with slide life was simple...  Beretta designed and built the gun in Italy.  They won the Big Army contract with their design.  They THEN built a factory in Brazil, and fulfilled their contract, and made every service-issue M9 - IN Brazil, at their new factory.  QC wasn't there.  Fine Italian craftsmanship wasn't there.  All the service-issue M9s were made in Brazil. 

And, then Beretta finished the initial supply contract of M9s to Big Army.  All that was left for Beretta to do was make MORE replacement guns when it arose, and supply replacement parts...   They made MAD MONEY by having a factory in Brazil, too, on that huge-ass Big Army contract...   So, initial supply run DONE.  They sold the factory...

 

 

 

 

To Taurus.

 

 

Taurus got all the designs, with that factory, too.  Including the M9.  What did Taurus do?  They made the PT-92.  They moved the safety to the frame, where it belongs, got rid of the decocker mechanism completely, and changed the way that slide was manufactured -and they offered a lifetime guarantee on their new slide, on the PT-92.

Our stories dove-tail together, Cliff.  Interesting information, when combined. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by 98Z5V

[Cliff R]

Good info, never knew anything about the Brazil deal.......tks....

[Belt Fed]

8 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

Taurus got all the designs, with that factory, too.  Including the M9.  What did Taurus do?  They made the PT-92

I have one of them i bought many years ago. only pic i have of it and it's an old one.

 

[unforgiven]

Great information guys 🍺🍺

[Steve crawford]

Belt Fed  I loke your very small collection.  They would fit my taste just fine. The only thing is that they will multiply like rabbets.  Don't ask how I know.  😁😀😊

      Steve

[98Z5V]

My first pistol that I ever bought, out on my own, was the Taurus PT-92.  I was 21, stationed in California, and had to wait my "waiting period" to go pick it up. It was 10 days, in 1991. I only bought the gun because it was "damn near" the Beretta M9, and so I could shoot when I wanted, and get better with my issued M9 - never enough trigger-time, in Regular Army, with handguns - 50 rounds a year, period, for annual qual - even in a Combat Arms unit, based on it being a "secondary weapon."

First weekend I had it, I put 1100 rounds through it.  First day, on the range, 22 boxes of ammo. poop was $5-ish per box then - even from a local gun store in California.

That particular pistol, I still have, and I'll never sell it - only thing I ever did to it was add Pachmayr grips.   

Last count on this one was 10k+ rounds - I quit counting on it, years ago, but I don't fire it much these days after retirement.  It's been an invaluable gun, for training for the M9 use, that I could never get the round-count to do militarily - just know the differences in the platforms. You can manipulate your M9, defeat that decocker, and always fire your M9 in single-action only - if you know how to work it.

 

[Lane]

Did you re-finish that thing or something? Too clean for 1,100 rounds? Or was that on day 1?