.308 AR-based battle rifle?

[ardrummer292]

Hey all, I've been searching high and low trying to find information about building a .308 AR into a battle rifle. It seems most folks are far more interested in squeezing sub-MOA accuracy out of their rifles instead of focusing on portability and reliability in adverse conditions. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just not my cup of tea.

 

Now, before anyone recommends a PTR-91, FAL, or SCAR-H, I'm not terribly fond of any of those weapons. The PTR would make reloading difficult, the FAL's ergonomics don't agree with me, and the SCAR doesn't "feel right." On top of all that, I would like a common manual of arms to simplify muscle memory for training. Thankfully, good ol' Uncle Sam was kind enough to provide me with plenty of quality training that has stuck.

 

 

 

So, with that said, here's what I'm looking for:

- AR-based rifle (of course)

- 16in barrel, medium contour, chrome lined is preferred

- Twist rate and gas system suited to running 147-150gr NATO ball ammo

- Compatible with P-mags

- Parts compatible with whatever the "standard" .308 AR configuration may eventually be (out with Armalite, in with DPMS/KAC is what I've read)

- A forward assist would be nice

- Light weight, preferably under 8-9 lbs unloaded

- Ability to run suppressed or unsuppressed

- Preferably DI for weight reduction, but I'll consider piston if the weight/balance penalty isn't terrible

- 0 MOA top rail

- Ability to reliably run utter crap ammo, such as Wolf or Brown Bear

- Ability to consistently engage point targets to 600 yards

- Great customer service from the manufacturer

- For the sake of argument, the budget is unlimited. Buy once, cry once, right? :D

 

 

 

So far, I've come up with these possible solutions:

 

LMT 308 MWSE - This was my first choice until I found the M&P10. The weight is a bit much, but I've heard pretty good things about this rifle. It's probably a bit too DMR, not enough MBR for my needs.

 

KAC SR25 ECC/APC - Nice blaster, but I have to wonder if the price is really worth it...

 

S&W M&P10 - This would be perfect if it came with a 16in medium contour barrel as a factory option. I reckon ADCO could cut down, thread, and drill out the gas port on one of the M&P10 hunting barrels. I've heard it has issues running light rounds like 7.62 NATO ball. I've also heard that the problem rifles weren't fully broken in at that point, so...

 

Armalite AR-10A A4 - The barrel profile is far too light for my taste, so I'd have to find a replacement with a medium contour. I'm also concerned about future availability of spare parts if the AR-10 pattern is being phased out.

 

For all rifles in question, I would probably have the gas port slightly oversized and have an adjustable gas block installed. I *think* this would facilitate running suppressed, unsuppressed, and in adverse conditions.

 

 

 

Does this mythical rifle exist, or am I totally off base?

 

***Edited for clarity***

Edited April 4, 2014 by ardrummer292

[unforgiven]

Welcome from Indiana brother ardrummer and THANK YOU for you'r service.Sounds like a plan that rifle is out there for sure.

[ardrummer292]

Thanks, unforgiven. I'm originally from Indiana, actually. Born and raised out in the sticks about 30 min away from South Bend. Once I got off active duty in 2012, I decided that I liked the VA Beach life, so I stayed. :D

 

I do hope you're right about my rifle being out there... somewhere...

[unforgiven]

Picked up my Garand out that way.Va beach area is very nice.Stayed at the Virginia beach resort and convention hotel on the quite side of hotel row.One of the brothers here had a LMT that was loaded for sale ,went quick.Good luck in you'r search brother.

[Robocop1051]

LaRue OBR shouldn't be ignored.

Honestly, for a battle rifle, why stick with a 16" barrel? I'd cut off as much as I could, then weld a muzzle device on the end, then I'd flute/dimple the remaining barrel to cut more weight. Your plan for a sub 9 pound rifle is where you're going to hit issues. The best place to cut weight on a .308 will always be the barrel.

The PWS rifles are pretty nice, right out of the box. LWRCi has some new models popping out as well. The new DPMS G2 Recon has all the options you spoke of.

[ardrummer292]

Stayed at the Virginia beach resort and convention hotel on the quite side of hotel row.

 

That place is literally 300 yards down the road from where I live. I heard they've got a bangin' breakfast bar with a donut machine!

 

 

 

... I love food, so this could go on for awhile. Back on topic! :D

 

LaRue OBR shouldn't be ignored.

Honestly, for a battle rifle, why stick with a 16" barrel? I'd cut off as much as I could, then weld a muzzle device on the end, then I'd flute/dimple the remaining barrel to cut more weight. Your plan for a sub 9 pound rifle is where you're going to hit issues. The best place to cut weight on a .308 will always be the barrel.

The PWS rifles are pretty nice, right out of the box. LWRCi has some new models popping out as well. The new DPMS G2 Recon has all the options you spoke of.

 

I skipped the OBR because of the canted top rail. There may be a variant with a 0 MOA top rail that I missed.

 

I want to keep it at 16in just to reduce drama in case I want to switch muzzle devices. I'm also worried about shot stringing during rapid fire, so I figured a medium contour barrel was the best way to go. Dunno if dimples or fluting would help there.

 

I looked at the PWS and LWRC offerings, but wasn't crazy about the piston system. The balance of the whole rifle gets thrown off pretty badly. Call me old fashioned, but I really don't mind DI. I guess it's the evil I know versus the evil I don't. :P

 

There's something about buying a DPMS product that makes my stomach flip. I know that their .308 semiauto rifles are nothing like their other products... it's almost like I have brand aversion, if you know what I mean.

 

 

 

Thanks for all the input so far, guys. Trying to sort this issue out while stuck in my own head has been awful.

 

 

 

***EDIT***

I just had a look at the DPMS offerings. If the G2 Recon came with a chrome-lined barrel and A2 flash hider (and was dead-nuts reliable), that would be the one. I'm assuming rail systems can be changed?

Edited April 4, 2014 by ardrummer292

[Matt.Cross]

You don't need an adjustable GB to run suppressed, it'll just be dirtier on the whole when you clean it. Been shooting through an Ops Inc 12th for quite some time now, only noticeable effect on the gas system is that there's more of it and it seems to cycle more reliably with junk ammo. ;)

[greenmist]

 

 

Does this mythical rifle exist, or am I totally off base?

 

***Edited for clarity***

 

 

Ohhh man, have you come to the RIGHT place!! This is THE ArmaLite haven which covers all your questions about the AR-10TC which is the 16" unit you are looking for, and is the best decision you'll EVER make. Welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:hethan: (happy friday) Go Brewers... 

[FaRKle!]

So far, I've come up with these possible solutions:

 

LMT 308 MWSE - This was my first choice until I found the M&P10. The weight is a bit much, but I've heard pretty good things about this rifle. It's probably a bit too DMR, not enough MBR for my needs.

 

KAC SR25 ECC/APC - Nice blaster, but I have to wonder if the price is really worth it...

 

S&W M&P10 - This would be perfect if it came with a 16in medium contour barrel as a factory option. I reckon ADCO could cut down, thread, and drill out the gas port on one of the M&P10 hunting barrels. I've heard it has issues running light rounds like 7.62 NATO ball. I've also heard that the problem rifles weren't fully broken in at that point, so...

 

Armalite AR-10A A4 - The barrel profile is far too light for my taste, so I'd have to find a replacement with a medium contour. I'm also concerned about future availability of spare parts if the AR-10 pattern is being phased out.

 

For all rifles in question, I would probably have the gas port slightly oversized and have an adjustable gas block installed. I *think* this would facilitate running suppressed, unsuppressed, and in adverse conditions.

I own the MWS and PWS MK216. The MWS is quite a pig, but it's probably the most battle-tested .308AR out there (since line guys get it instead of just special snipers and SOF like with KAC guns). Swinging the gun from target to target the MK216 is much easier than the MWS. Its piston setup doesn't throw off the balance (but it does benefit from a slightly heavier stock such as an ACS-L). I'll let you know how the MWS handles when I get my re-worked barrel back from Nefarious Arms.

For your requirements it sounds like you want a PredatOBR.

[shibiwan]

If you're looking at DPMS patterns the Larue & KAC and would be out out since the uppers/lowers aren't technically 100% DPMS nor Armalite compatible (they are hybrid Armalite/DPMS designs)

 

If budget is of no concern, the PredatOBR is the way to go.

 

Otherwise, any of our cheapie 308's would work great as a general purpose battle rifles. That was my personal goal when I got my 308 (ended up with a CMMG MK3). I wanted something I could use as a battle rifle but able to reach out for long range engagements if need be. I'm not a weight weenie since I got used to carrying an FN-MAG (M240) while I served in the military, so I don't mind that my 308 is on the heavy side.

[Magwa]

Your parameters are exactly what I had in mind when I built this out of a DPMS standard carbine, it weighs 8.lb 6 oz unloaded but as you see it.... simple ,tough and very very accurate ,I have taken elk ,deer, with it is shoots 147,and 150, fine and loves 168....

[D.R.D.]

Why not build one?  You could probably make one to your exact specs for just a little more or the same as you would pay for something off the shelf.  Or, get a used DPMS like Magwa's and customize the parts you want.  

[pokey]

 I've been looking at the windham weaponry scr308.  I don't own one in 308, but can tell you they build great products with great customer service first hand.  Very pleased with their products. The only thing stopping me so far is I want a 20" barrel and they only offer 16".

[Powerman]

I know you said you don't care for DPMS... but they just released their G2 series which is very interesting. Especially the Scout. I have been looking at what is out there for a .308 carbine basically. I built my last rifle, and may just build another upper for it and go that route. I do not know all the "off the shelf" stuff out there, but there is nothing "mythical" about anything you want. You will get exactly what you want.

[shepp]

I own a DPMS "mk12" it's a pig, I'm working on putting her on a diet right now. Not that I've got a ton of ammo thru it, it's been dependable and seems to be of better quality then their .556/.223 rifles. Right now I'm weighing in at 11.7 pounds unloaded with scope and mount. I plan on posting up a before and after when I get my MWI hand guard installed.

Oh and greenmist go crew :)

Edited April 5, 2014 by shepp

[ardrummer292]

Thank you all for the replies. There's some great knowledge to be had out there, and it looks like I've come to the right place!

 

 

 

You don't need an adjustable GB to run suppressed

 

Good to know! My main concern is being able to run the system when absolutely filthy, which would probably necessitate overgassing the system temporarily.

 

 

 

Ohhh man, have you come to the RIGHT place!! This is THE ArmaLite haven which covers all your questions about the AR-10TC which is the 16" unit you are looking for, and is the best decision you'll EVER make.

 

Thanks for the input! I can't seem to find that particular model on the Armalite website. My Google-fu must be weak. :P

 

 

 

I own the MWS and PWS MK216. The MWS is quite a pig, but it's probably the most battle-tested .308AR out there (since line guys get it instead of just special snipers and SOF like with KAC guns). Swinging the gun from target to target the MK216 is much easier than the MWS. Its piston setup doesn't throw off the balance (but it does benefit from a slightly heavier stock such as an ACS-L). I'll let you know how the MWS handles when I get my re-worked barrel back from Nefarious Arms.

For your requirements it sounds like you want a PredatOBR.

 

Yeah, the LMT is pretty nails. While I dig it a good bit, I wouldn't mind something a bit lighter.

 

I looked at the PredatOBR. Beautiful rifle, although I couldn't seem to find the weight. It also has that weird breakdown feature, which I honestly have no use for. I'd hate to spend extra money on a feature I don't need. Maybe the PredatAR would be a better fit?

 

 

 

If you're looking at DPMS patterns the Larue & KAC and would be out out since the uppers/lowers aren't technically 100% DPMS nor Armalite compatible (they are hybrid Armalite/DPMS designs)

 

Ya see, it's posts like this that show me I've gotta lot of stuff to learn... :D

 

 

 

Why not build one?  You could probably make one to your exact specs for just a little more or the same as you would pay for something off the shelf.  Or, get a used DPMS like Magwa's and customize the parts you want.  

 

I run my gear very hard, so I would really prefer to get something off the shelf and have manufacturer support in case of function issues.

 

 

 

 I've been looking at the windham weaponry scr308.  I don't own one in 308, but can tell you they build great products with great customer service first hand.  Very pleased with their products. The only thing stopping me so far is I want a 20" barrel and they only offer 16".

 

One of my buddies has a Windham AR-15 and it has been running great so far. I guess we'll have to wait and see how their .308 offering pans out.
 

 

 

You guys are fantastic. Keep the information coming! :)

[shibiwan]

Ever consider a 300AAC since you're looking for something lighter?

[ardrummer292]

I thought about it, but I want to stick with a military standard cartridge for ease of acquisition.

[FaRKle!]

Yeah, the LMT is pretty nails. While I dig it a good bit, I wouldn't mind something a bit lighter.

 

I looked at the PredatOBR. Beautiful rifle, although I couldn't seem to find the weight. It also has that weird breakdown feature, which I honestly have no use for. I'd hate to spend extra money on a feature I don't need. Maybe the PredatAR would be a better fit?

The 16" PredatOBR weighs right in at about 9lb unloaded. The PredatAR is a solid rifle if you really want even lighter weight.

[98Z5V]

I run my gear very hard, so I would really prefer to get something off the shelf and have manufacturer support in case of function issues.

 

 

 

 

KAC, then. With that purchase, you'll never need their support - you won't kill it.  However, if you do, then you've got it.  That's why it costs what it does.

Edited April 7, 2014 by 98Z5V

[Sisco]

I wouldn't write off the Armalite. First, their A models which use the P Mags are becoming their standard of manufacture. Second,their customer service is excellent. Third they have spent a lot of time and effort refining their design. If you are looking for six hundred yard accuracy, you will be talking 1 to 1.5 MOA , which the standard AR10 A4 delivers with the 20 inch barrel, while still not being a heavy weight.Even their standard barrel is double lapped. Also you can get their National Match trigger, if you don't want to mess with an aftermarket like the Gesseile (mispelled that). Which you will want for consistent 600 yard accuracy. Armalite is certainly not being phased out, My advice: find a way to shoot a DPMS, Armalite, and a KAC and whatever else you think might fill the bill. If you can find a firearms acadamy that will let you run a live fire action course with all three, do it. It would be money well spent. Until then it is difficult to tell what would be best for you in terms of human engineering, carry and balance. Good luck.

[shibiwan]

I thought about it, but I want to stick with a military standard cartridge for ease of acquisition.

 

The point is when SHTF, you shoot the aggressor with the 300BLK and take his 5.56 and matching rifle as backup! You can also just grab his upper. That stuff is gonna be all over the place and up for grabs!  <lmao>  <laughs>

Edited April 7, 2014 by shibiwan

[ardrummer292]

The 16" PredatOBR weighs right in at about 9lb unloaded. The PredatAR is a solid rifle if you really want even lighter weight.

 

I was wondering if I could pick up the PredatAR with a heavier barrel. That seems like it would be a solid setup while staying within my weight limit.

 

 

 

 

KAC, then. With that purchase, you'll never need their support - you won't kill it.  However, if you do, then you've got it.  That's why it costs what it does.

 

Yeah, but I'd hate to spend double the money for a KAC when other companies have great customer service as well. :P

 

 

 

My advice: find a way to shoot a DPMS, Armalite, and a KAC and whatever else you think might fill the bill.

 

I wish that was possible, man. I can probably handle a few at my local gun shop to figure out what is "acceptable" in terms of balance. As far as reliability goes, I was hoping to get all that information here.

 

 

 

In true newbie fashion, I completely failed to search "battle rifle" on these boards before posting my thread. I'm going to do some research, then drop by a gun shop and have a fondle. I guess that's my afternoon spent, then. :D

 

 

 

***EDITED TO ADD***

After a little thought, my main criteria is reliability through adverse conditions with crap ammo (i.e. Wolf/Brown Bear/other steel case). Again, I would like to avoid piston if possible. Shame on me for wanting a unicorn rifle, right? :P

Edited April 7, 2014 by ardrummer292

[Magwa]

My DPMS carbine weighs just under 9 lbs I pack this rifle in the mountains of idaho rain ,snow, dust, mud, I do not sissyfi my weapons they are tools they get carried on ATV's snowmobiles, etc at 9 lbs I do not kn ow you , but add a 60 lb pack, binos ,water and a bunch of other stuff and I will flat out tell you the last thin g you want is a 12 or 13 lb rifle forget the 20 inch barrel these things are pigs .....make it as light as you can.. I know from practical experience..

[planeflyer21]

Out of curiosity Magwa, why not something like a Remington 7400 or 750?  Those are painfully light.