.308 AR Modification question

[Brian_Paul_D]

Being new to the semi-auto world I wanted to pose a question to the more experienced folks. First the background info. I recently purchased my first AR 308 to upgrade my trusty 38 year old Remington 30-06 pump. Being a retired Navy officer I was looking for a new interest/hobby and the more I read about the rifle the more I liked the idea of being able to interchange and customize the rifle. Additionally, Pennsylvania announced late last year that they would be making these legal to hunt big game with in the following year. I hunt in a very remote mountain area and hike very far back into the forest away from other hunters and don't have any plans to 'fill the air with lead'. The dense cover makes follow-up shots rare anyway and you have to track and wait for an opening so the rate of fire wouldn't be noticeably different. All this aside, Pennsylvania has now decided to amend the law and only allow the semi-auto guns for small game and coyotes. Yes, I could pull my old gun out but I really love the improved accuracy and optics of the new gun. I've read a lot of articles about modifying the AR 308 rifles to make them in legal to use. It appears there are a several options but these appear to be the best candidates. 

1) use a single shot 'zero'magazine sled. Drop in any following shots by hand and close the bolt carrier with the latch release. This would be the cheapest method but might not legally satisfy the law by removing the capability for semi-auto fire.

2) Replace the barrel with a new one without a gas port. This would definitely satisfy the intent of the law and the rifle would be a bolt action operated with the charging handle.

3) Remove / plug the gas key on the bolt. I would actually purchase a separate BCG or just the bolt carrier (sans bolt) and remove the gas key altogether or plug the tube with JB weld. 

Number one is probably out unless the PA game commission or a state trooper were to give me a thumbs up in writing prior. 

The cost of number two is not much more than number three but I really would prefer not to fool with changing the barrel for when I hunt in other states or at the range. 

Number three seems the easiest and a bolt carrier is only around 100 dollars (a full BCG not much more). However, I haven't been able to find anything about how the rifle would specifically function. With the gas key plugged I would figure it has the same function as crimping the gas tube in that the bolt would not go back and that the gas would stay in the tube and then exit the barrel as the only path to the atmosphere. I don't think there would be enough of a surface to act upon to push the bolt back. If this is true, it would keep the hot/dirty gas from entering the bolt area. (not that this would happen very often anyway). The other option of removing the gas key would give a greater volume for the gas to expand and most probably never cycle the bolt back. But is this safe for the shooter? Actually is either of these methods safer? 

I don't want to go with an adjustable gas block turned around or blocked off with a set screw and certainly don't want to crimp the tube inside the upper. For me personally, replacing the bolts back and forth is the easiest method and something I can do back at home. 

This is really just a question as to the safety and operability (ie. will it work) of the rifle with the various methods. I've read all the hemming and hawing about how it needs to be permanent or no it doesn't. I'll deal with the legal aspect separately and in advance by getting permission in writing. And YES, I might still take the old rifle anyway, I just want to gather the data to make an informed decision.

Thank you in advance. I really do appreciate the advice.

[edgecrusher]

I suggest number two with a caveat. Build a second upper to satisfy your concerns about losing functionality. One upper for hunting and one for everything else.

 

The only question remaining is rifle details and money to shop with.

[Brian_Paul_D]

I thought about that as well.  Having a side charging upper with no-gas port barrel.

[unforgiven]

I would call DNR and find out exactly what they require. Indiana also allowed centerfire rifles to be used for deer hunting but some calibers were not allowed one being .270. .308 and 30-06 were allowed. I cut down a 16" barrel and added a comp for 16.1 overall length only to call DNR after the fact and find out I had to have 16' of barrel. So I wasn't smart enough to just re-barrel and got another upper. Which is for sale by the way. Call DNR.

[ARTrooper]

Move to a better state where they don't restrict your gun rights. ;)

[Rsquared]

I don't understand what you might have against adjustable blocks? I use them on most of my AR-10's. Granted I use them for suppressed use. But for shutting off the gas so the rifle will only single fire, sounds like a no-brainer to me. But, to each his own.

[survivalshop]

28 minutes ago, Rsquared said:

I don't understand what you might have against adjustable blocks? I use them on most of my AR-10's. Granted I use them for suppressed use. But for shutting off the gas so the rifle will only single fire, sounds like a no-brainer to me. But, to each his own.

  I agree as with the above ,as long as PA DNR is ok with it . I think they will have types rifles or features or a rifle , much like the Assault rifle ban, that would make your rifle unusable as a legal rifle for Hunting use , but you have to take or contact them, to be sure of what , if anything , can be done to use it .

[shepp]

51 minutes ago, Rsquared said:

I don't understand what you might have against adjustable blocks? I use them on most of my AR-10's. Granted I use them for suppressed use. But for shutting off the gas so the rifle will only single fire, sounds like a no-brainer to me. But, to each his own.

I think because it still leaves the ability to be turned to semi auto in little to no time, same reason he's stating they won't just let you do a plugged mag you could drop and be up and semi auto in seconds 

[Brian_Paul_D]

Shepp is correct.  I'm guessing they would look at an adjustable gas block as a temporary modification that I might be able to reverse in the field.  Maybe not.  I'll contact them in a few months as more information comes out.  There is a lot of blowback right now and most likely NRA pressure so they might reverse it anyway.  Just really thinking about options right now.  Plugging the gas key or removing it on a spare bolt carrier seems like the easiest option (maybe removing the gas rings as well).  IF that would work?  that's the main question.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Brian_Paul_D

[survivalshop]

  I would be more inclined to eliminate all Propellant gases from entering the receiver . Remove the Gas Tube & have an Adj. gas Block ,t hat actually cuts the Gas signal completely  , accomplishes two things , makes the rifle incapable of semi auto firing & keeps the Receivers , BCG , FCG , clean . 

 All this is of course on what the PDNR says or writes for a regulation (s)

[unforgiven]

In Indiana the legislature pass the law against the wishes of DNR, they were not happy. That is why they will hold hunters to the letter of the law. No exceptions. As a hunter safety instructor for the state of Indiana I had to make sure I had my $hit together.  

[Robocop1051]

I like the idea of a new upper built to be a "straight bolt" design. Especially if it's a side charger  

I may have missed your rifle set up, but why not just pull the gas tube and tilt the gas block off center?

if you pull the gas key off your carrier, your charging handle won't have anything to hold on to. 

[bubbas4570]

1 hour ago, Robocop1051 said:

I like the idea of a new upper built to be a "straight bolt" design. Especially if it's a side charger  

I may have missed your rifle set up, but why not just pull the gas tube and tilt the gas block off center?

if you pull the gas key off your carrier, your charging handle won't have anything to hold on to. 

Very good thinking, and would probably end up in court.....

Pissing off DNR agents....by showing them they don't know what they think they know.....not good.

But still good thinking irregardless!

[survivalshop]

9 hours ago, Robocop1051 said:

I like the idea of a new upper built to be a "straight bolt" design. Especially if it's a side charger  

I may have missed your rifle set up, but why not just pull the gas tube and tilt the gas block off center?

if you pull the gas key off your carrier, your charging handle won't have anything to hold on to. 

  Much less expensive to have two Gas Blocks , but as far as ease of going from a single shot to a semi auto , having another set up Upper, would be the easiest . I'm just interested to see what Pa. has to say about it , because when I hunted there ( Non-Resident ) the Game wardens were Pricks , could have been because I was a non resident , but they were bad , even the residents were pissed at them , you didn't want to see one & I mostly hunted in State Game lands around the camp I was at . Archery was not an issue , but any firearm type hunting was & that included Turkey Hunting , in which I got sited for not having the proper orange on when going to my next set up , my Back Pak was sightly covering up some . 

 I never went back to PA hunting after that . That was about fifteen years ago , I'm sure it has changed 

[Brian_Paul_D]

Thanks.  I forgot about the charging handle needing to grip the gas key.  so removing it isn't an option.  I'm pretty sure the key on the BCG fits INSIDE the tube on the upper (but it may be the opposite way).  If so, plugging the gas key permanently with JB weld (on my spare BCG) should prevent any gas from going back into the BCG and still enable me to charge it with the bolt. 

Honestly, I doubt that the PA game commission will give any specifics about legal modifications.  I'm not that worried though.  I hunt so deep into the mountains that we've never seen a game warden in all of the 40+ years.  They mainly patrol the roads and areas where people park.  Still, I want to meet the intent of the law - if it still exists this winter.

[shepp]

9 minutes ago, Brian_Paul_D said:

Thanks.  I forgot about the charging handle needing to grip the gas key.  so removing it isn't an option.  I'm pretty sure the key on the BCG fits INSIDE the tube on the upper (but it may be the opposite way).  If so, plugging the gas key permanently with JB weld (on my spare BCG) should prevent any gas from going back into the BCG and still enable me to charge it with the bolt. 

Honestly, I doubt that the PA game commission will give any specifics about legal modifications.  I'm not that worried though.  I hunt so deep into the mountains that we've never seen a game warden in all of the 40+ years.  They mainly patrol the roads and areas where people park.  Still, I want to meet the intent of the law - if it still exists this winter.

Yes because if anyone were to say hey he shot this deer with a semi auto they may come question you and you'll need to be able show them viable evidence 

[unforgiven]

I saw this : http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/03/29/sorry-pa-hunters-no-semi-autos/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2017-04-01&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

[unforgiven]

and this : http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/11/29/pa-hunters-might-get-use-semi-autos-deer/  so my take is it is either a bolt rifle or lever action. Just my 2 mags. Doing your own thing runs the risk of at best your firearm gets confiscated. At worst your arrested. DNR guys/girls are serious about their jobs. That's every state.

[Robocop1051]

You could buy a carrier designed for a piston system. They don't have gas keys, but they do have a nub for the charging handle to grip. 

Still, to be on the most legal side, build a dedicated "straight bolt" rifle. A side charge design would be nice for the rapid/faster reloads. 

If you wanted to be on the tricky side, build a piston upper. When you hunt, turn off the gas and remove the operation rod. It's a 5 second swap. The rifle won't cycle without an op rod. 

[survivalshop]

  I would look at the laws & regulations as they are printed now , they will define what is to be used in hunting , making a semi auto in to single shot , does not make it a Bolt action or a Lever action , as defined by the make up of the firearm . 

This is all thats printed in their General Regulations .

Lawful Arms & Ammunition

Deer and Bear, Regular Seasons

• Manually operated (pump, lever, bolt actions, single-shot) center fire rifles, shotguns (shotguns do not have to be plugged when hunting deer, bears or elk) and handguns (revolvers or single-shots) with all-lead bullet or ball, or bullet designed to expand on impact; 

 I would say that any rifle not capable mechanically to fire semi auto , would fall under the Single shot Rifle category . Of corse you might be the first one to test this , with your rife ,  I'm no lawyer , but I would think it would hold up in court , if thats the way you want to go .

 If the rifle is set up to work as a singe shot & unable to fire semi auto ,with out adding components or changing components  , its a single shot rifle . It doesn't say anything about magazine fed & a lot of Bolt Guns are Mag fed , so I see no issue there.

       You would just have to make sure that whatever you did would satisfy anyone that the rifles function is anything other or capable off, a single shot rifle . Also , why hasn't anyone thought of this & have used an AR 308 , converted to Single Shot Rifle to Hunt with there ? If they have , because the 308AR has been around now for quit a while , why hasn't anyone heard of it , or have they kept a good secret ?  OR OR . your the first that wants to buck the status quo & be the first to test these muddy waters ?

 

[Sisco]

I hunted with a 30-06 Remington pump for many years after I bought it in 1977. Hunt with that until the legislature gets their act together. Enjoy your AR308 for everything else.

[98Z5V]

9 hours ago, Brian_Paul_D said:

Thanks.  I forgot about the charging handle needing to grip the gas key.  so removing it isn't an option.

The charging handle doesn't grab onto the gas key, at all.  The charging handle grabs the flat on the top of the carrier, right under the gas key, right in front of the cam pin.

[survivalshop]

21 hours ago, 98Z5V said:

The charging handle doesn't grab onto the gas key, at all.  The charging handle grabs the flat on the top of the carrier, right under the gas key, right in front of the cam pin.

  Ya , but I'll bet with out the Gas Key for alignment , the Charging handle would have the potential to slip off that small lip , I wouldn't trust those side tabs on the Charging Handle that guide it & keep it on the BC with out the Gas Key being used as another alignment fixture . Theres a lot of resistance pressure on the BCG with the Buffer spring .

 Anyone have a BCG with out a Key to try it , It would be a good experiment 

[jtallen83]

The nub on my piston 716 is way too far back to do any type of guiding, once the handle is past the operating rod there is nothing there to guide it but the tabs and tolerances. That said most piston gun charging handles have a deeper drop on the front than standard charging handles. I've seen a BCM modified for a 716 and they had to add about a 1/16 of an inch to get it to engage the carrier, major amount of machine work to make it function.

[survivalshop]

13 hours ago, jtallen83 said:

The nub on my piston 716 is way too far back to do any type of guiding, once the handle is past the operating rod there is nothing there to guide it but the tabs and tolerances. That said most piston gun charging handles have a deeper drop on the front than standard charging handles. I've seen a BCM modified for a 716 and they had to add about a 1/16 of an inch to get it to engage the carrier, major amount of machine work to make it function.

 A Piston action BC doesn't have the extension on the Gas Key that the Gas Tube fits into , but your right , the Piston BC's mostly rely on the little Guide tabs on the Charging handle to work the action .

 We were talking about the Key being omitted , , with a Piston BC , there is still something there that is close to a Carrier Key for the Charging Handle to   grab on to & I don't know how other Piston system may work , but my Piston Rod goes through the same place as the Gas tube . 

 This is totally interesting , I'm going to have to look much more closely , 98 brought up a good point . 

Edit , looking at a BCG , If the Charging handle went any further back then that Lip on the BC , it would interfere with the Cam Pin .

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by survivalshop