Old timer experienced with GENUINE AR 10 rifles, AI Portuguese and Sudanes joining up

[Lazerus2000]

Decades ago I owned, shot, customised, and enjoyed about three dozen of the GENUINE ORIGINAL AR 10 Military issue rifles. These were the Dutch /AI built Sudanese and Portuguese model rifles that ended up as surplus and then were imported into Canada. They were full auto capable, but on import were modified to shoot semi auto only. As a licensed gunsmith, I COMPLETELY stripped down several of these rifles in rough condition, and cleaned them up for resale. I even made a few full auto versions for personal use. Back in the day, these original AR 10s were my favorite "Battle" rifle.

But as the parts dried up, and the always rare AR 10 became an orphan, more for collectors than for practical shooters, I turned my attention to the M14 type rifles. But the AR 10 was ( and still is) my favorite all around most versatile practical rifle design.

I spent several years assisting in the design of the M14.CA aluminum BLACKFEATHER stock, which copies much of the outstanding ergonomics, fast handling, and balance of the AR 10 on to the M14 platform. But after working for too many years on too many M14 rifles, I finally have come back to the modernised AR 10 ... which I view as AR15/AR10 HYBRIDS, rather than as GENUINE AR 10s.

My experience with three of the DPMS built Remington R25 rifles was very positive. Once I replaced the too light hammer springs, improved the triggers, and swapped over to Pmags, all three were TOTALLY RELIABLE and MOA or better shooters.
My most recent AR10/AR15 hybrid is a DPMS LR308B, which I bought on sale for $699 US $. The fit and finish is outstanding, and out of the box the trigger was acceptable.

I did a better trigger job, added an M14.CA skeletonised butt, scoped it, and first time out with factory ammo it shot 100 yd 5 shot MOA. Not bad for a $699 rifle.

Looking forward to enjoying this AR 10 wannabee almost as much as I did those GENUINE AR10s way back in the day.

Larry Z

I had

Edited April 22, 2015 by Matt.Cross
Added poll

[Malig8r]

Welcome to the forum from Washington. Look forward to hearing your input as a gunsmith with experience with the platform.

[planeflyer21]

Welcome from AZ!

 

It would be cool to hear more about your experiences with AR10s.

[MikedaddyH]

Welcome from AZ !

Could you post some pictures of these old AR 10's. Thx

[unforgiven]

Welcome from indiana brother Larry.You have a ton of knowledge brother.

[Lazerus2000]

Sorry,

all my ORIGINAL AR 10 rifles are long gone. However, last month I bumped into an old shooting buddy at a local gun store who I hadn't seen 30 years. He got a few of the TENS off of me back in the day. The AR10 came up in conversation and he still has a few of them. I offered to buy back one and he took my phone number but probably zero chance of him selling me one.

Way back in the 1980s, I competed in local three gun matches with a few of those ORIGINAL AR10s. I built one up just for matches that would be one of the first M4 type AR10 CARBINES. I chopped the barrel to 18.5", added an effective comp, milled the front of the carrying handle into a Weaver base, mounted a RED DOT almost co-witness with the iron sights, and replaced the original handguards with AR 15 plastic, ground the lower to take an AR15 pistol grip, removed the beat up butt stock and added on just a skeleton butt plate. That rifle was unbeatable at our local matches.

Stoner was ahead of his time with the AR10, and I was ahead of my time with my AR10 M4GRY. But life runs in circles, and now AR10 M4gry shorties are all over. I am waiting for the bugs to shake loose on the DPMS GEN2 lightweight models, and I may end up with one if those as well. 40 years of "progress?" and still an AR10 shorty is one of the best "PRACTICAL" rifles ever made.

Although, I do miss the larger diameter buffer tube, buffer, spring and bolt of the ORIGINAL AR10s. The felt recoil on these was different than with the modernised AR15/AR10 HYBRIDS, with their smaller parts. Thise old ORIGINAL TENS felt like a Browning long recoil Auto five shotgun, with the "shuck ...shuck" of all that reciprocating mass pulling the rifle down for faster rapid fire.

In my personal full auto firing tests, comparing the ORIGINAL AR10 to the FN FAL, and the M14, the TEN was the clear winner. I could consistently keep short bursts on an IPSC SIL target at 25 yds standing and 100 yds prone with the TEN. While it was possible to do the same with an FN and a 14, I was never as consistent with those.

Larry Z

Edited April 19, 2015 by Lazerus2000

[Lazerus2000]

I also have some experience with the AR15 platform. I have owned a few and built about four dozen or so from various piles of parts. Like most serious AR15 shooters, I have been less than thrilled with the power available in 5.56/.223 ammunition. Although, I once spent a pleasant weekend shooting Sitka deer ( very small critters about the size if a Standard bred POODLE.) Legal limit was 10 and I took 5 of them with .223 soft point hunting ammo, all of them INSTANT ONE SHOT KILLS. However, I carefully chose my shots, and took only standing deer at 20 - 80 paces. If a deer was moving, I did NOT take the shot.

The .223 has a place in my arsenal, but I am well aware of the inherent limitations of light fast bullets. For that reason I played around with the original .300 Whisper and with 6.8 SPC. Both of these cartridges are considerable improvements in power and performanc in an AR15 platform, but after experimenting with them, and realising that both were more expensive than .308 ammo ... and so much harder to source up here in Canada ... I went back to 7.62 Nato /.308 Win.

The AR10 in.308 can be loaded with light 125/130gr bullets that go super fast, or downloaded to duplicate .300W/7.62×39 external ballistics. And it can also be loaded HEAVY, with 200 gr soft point, fir just about any big game in North America. And it can be loaded for long range, with 155/168/175 gr ultra high BC bullets. This UNSURPASSED VERSATILITY strongly biases me to shoot .308 over all other AR offerings.

However, I still have an AR15 M4gry for faster/closer target rich environment tactical scenarios. With a wide selection of ammo from super light/ superfast varmint to 75 gr SuperPerfrmance for bigger varmints and you have a lighter weight platform, again with outstanding versatility .Add in a .22 LR conversion for low cost practice, small game and low noise, and you get even more versatility ... but constrained by the limitations of the lighter/smaller bullets.

Both have their place.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Lazerus2000

[MikedaddyH]

British Columbia ??

[Lazerus2000]

Yep..Vancouver Island ...

aka "FANTASY ISLAND".

[Microgunner]

Welcome from Florida.

[GRA]

Decades ago I owned, shot, customised, and enjoyed about three dozen of the GENUINE ORIGINAL AR 10 Military issue rifles. These were the Dutch /AI built Sudanese and Portuguese model rifles that ended up as surplus and then were imported into Canada. They were full auto capable, but on import were modified to shoot semi auto only. As a licensed gunsmith, I COMPLETELY stripped down several of these rifles in rough condition, and cleaned them up for resale. I even made a few full auto versions for personal use. Back in the day, these original AR 10s were my favorite "Battle" rifle.

But as the parts dried up, and the always rare AR 10 became an orphan, more for collectors than for practical shooters, I turned my attention to the M14 type rifles. But the AR 10 was ( and still is) my favorite all around most versatile practical rifle design.

I spent several years assisting in the design of the M14.CA aluminum BLACKFEATHER stock, which copies much of the outstanding ergonomics, fast handling, and balance of the AR 10 on to the M14 platform. But after working for too many years on too many M14 rifles, I finally have come back to the modernised AR 10 ... which I view as AR15/AR10 HYBRIDS, rather than as GENUINE AR 10s.

My experience with three of the DPMS built Remington R25 rifles was very positive. Once I replaced the too light hammer springs, improved the triggers, and swapped over to Pmags, all three were TOTALLY RELIABLE and MOA or better shooters.

My most recent AR10/AR15 hybrid is a DPMS LR308B, which I bought on sale for $699 US $. The fit and finish is outstanding, and out of the box the trigger was acceptable.

I did a better trigger job, added an M14.CA skeletonised butt, scoped it, and first time out with factory ammo it shot 100 yd 5 shot MOA. Not bad for a $699 rifle.

Looking forward to enjoying this AR 10 wannabee almost as much as I did those GENUINE AR10s way back in the day.

Larry Z

I had

Very useful post for me right now.  I can only appreciate your experience and candor.

 

As I am about to being my 308 build on the AR platform, I went to the local gun show today and spoke with several vendors regarding the ArmaLite AR10, and the SR25 / LR308 versions.

 

Interestingly a lot of them wished me "good luck".

 

Glad I found a forum where folks have experience that are not trying to sell me anything.

[GRA]

At the gun show today I spoke with a vendor from the Dallas area that was selling an ArmaLite DF10.  Price was about $935.00 for cash and 3% more for credit card.  I wrote his information down and he pointed out it was that last AR10 he had, and to make sure I bought the ArmaLite-correct fore end if I went to replace the factory round fore end, for example, with a Magpul piece.

 

I spoke with another vendor who wasn't even interested in seeing if he could save me some money on the ArmaLite AR104A gunsmithing package.  I spoke ot another vendor regarding this same package and she told me the alst time she had one of those was several months ago and currently has 2 more backodered with the last selling price being about $850.00.

 

I mentioned the new Spikes Tactical 308 receiver set and she was very surprised, initially in disbelief, when I told her that Spikes had designed the lower to accept an ArmaLite bolt catch.   When I referred her to the website currently selling these she just shook her head and told me that if I wanted to build my own 308 AR then I should buy the barrel FIRST, as a lot of manufacurer's parts do not interchange.

 

She then pointed out that Mega Arms was a good start for a first-time builder as a lot of their receivers use a lot if parts that are readily available as being interchangeable with the AR15.

 

Can anyone here vouch for the barrel purchase advice and the information about Mega Arms being credible advice from a vendor?

 

I appreciate the assistance.

[Armed Eye Doc]

Welcome from Texas.  This is a great site if you need someone with experience, or if you have experience to share.  You sound like you are the latter.

[washguy]

GRA   I have several Mega builds....they are very very nice...always buy a matched upper/lower...the mega ma10 for example.

I use DPMS lpk without the trigger ...then buy a nice trigger...makes your shooting more accurate....an off the shelf Rainier 16" barrel will do anything you want   :) Wash

[Lazerus2000]

Sorry,

all my ORIGINAL AR 10 rifles are long gone. However, last month I bumped into an old shooting buddy at a local gun store who I hadn't seen 30 years. He got a few of the TENS off of me back in the day. The AR10 came up in conversation and he still has a few of them. I offered to buy back one and he took my phone number but probably zero chance of him selling me one.

Larry Z

WARNING CANUCKISTANI SPECIFIC CONTENT:

In Canada, the AR15 and all variants are legally classified BY ORDER IN COUNCIL (aka NAMES ON A LIST ) as RESTRICTED rifles, which require registration just like a pistol. The GENUINE MIL SPEC ORIGINALAR 10 rifles were almost all FULL AUTO, and they fit into the FULL AUTO or CONVERTED AUTO ( grandfathered collector only) legal status. The classification of all AR15 based semi auto only modern AR10 HYBRIDS is currently same as AR15s ...aka varients thereof.

However, recent legal rulings up here in Canuckistan regarding those very rare GENUINE ORIGINAL AR 10 RIFLES, that have SEMI auto only receivers, indicates that SEMI AUTO ONLY ORIGINAL AR 10 rifles may be legally classified as ordinary NOT REGISTERED OR RESTRICTED long arms. Because the AR10 was not specifically named in the original order in council, and because it has been successfully argued in court that the AR 15 is a variant of the AR10, not the other wsy around, precedent exists to manufacture and sell in Canada ORIGINAL PATTERN SEMI AUTO ONLY AR 10 type rifles.

Alberta Tactical has paved the way with their confirmed Canadian legal AR10 LIKE "Modern Hunter". The Modern Hunter varies somewhat from the original AR 1O design to make it street legal. Very few AR15 parts can be used, to make sure it is not ckasssified as an AR15 VARIANT.

SO,

this MAY pave the way for the creation of other new CANADIAN LEGAL SEMI AUTO only lower receivers that would fit the many SUDANES and PORTUGUESE AR10 rifles that are basically legal wall hangers, or buried in the back yard.

I consult for a Canadian gun parts manufacturer called.M14.CA. We make mostly CNC alloy add ons for the M14 type rifles. One example of our product is the BLACKFEATHER stock, which was designed to blend AR style ergonomics and fast handling, with the reliable old school/steel M14 ( which in semi auto only models is still street legal up here). We also make alloy replacement upper and lowers for the Norinco T97 BULLPUP ... which again are NOT restricted here.

We certainly have the proven expertise to manufacture semi auto only replacement AR 10 lowers, and I suggested this idea to the owner of M14.CA. He was luke warm to the concept, citing very limited market and limited profit margin for such a low production volume item. He also was concerned that the legal status if the semi auto only AR10 might be challenged .... but planning a business strategy around the Canadian gun laws is already like swimming in quicksand ... for just about ANY firearm. Plus there could be LONNGGgg wait till the RCMP get around to validating any new AR10 lower. All good PRACTICAL reasons to not go ahead with such a project

But gun people are not always "practical". They some times let their passion ( ?obsession?) Over rule their good sense. So I am working on getting him hooked on the AR 10 family and maybe I can change his mind.

So what do you think ...

if a Canadian legal semi auto only replacement lower receiver was made for the AI built AR 10 rifles, would it sell.??

[Microgunner]

In the US, or Canada only?

[Lazerus2000]

I think Canada imported way more of the AI built ten rifles than any one else. These complete rifles would be stripped for donor uppers and original AR10 LPKS.

Shipping a lower receiver into the US from Canada mught be more trouble than it would be worth. For the first few years, BATF required documentation just to export our Blackfesther alloy stocks to the US ... which was ridiculous.

Gun laws on both countries make little sense, and trying to go back and forth between the two is often ... complicated.

So short answer,

these receivers would be made specifically to meet CANADIAN legal requirements, and probably would not be viable for a US marketable item.

Besides, the US already has MANY GOOD AR10 receiver sources in the US. We Canucks have none.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Lazerus2000

[FaRKle!]

So what do you think ...

if a Canadian legal semi auto only replacement lower receiver was made for the AI built AR 10 rifles, would it sell.??

It'd probably sell, but not nearly enough to make it worth the investment.

[Microgunner]

I have no clue what would be a good seller in Canada.

[Matt.Cross]

I have no clue what would be a good seller in Canada.

 

Two words: anal lube.

[Microgunner]

LMAO

[98Z5V]

It seems that's already selling well...  <dontknow>

[blue109]

that was ugly

[Lazerus2000]

Two words: anal lube.

Matt

you sir are rude and crude .... and ever so out if date.

Where gave you been, you poor dear man. It is time to crawl out from under your rock ( or out of your closet) and embrace the new reality.

In this modern new world ANAL LUBE users have rights too.

ANAL LUBE users have political power now ... they can march openly by the thousands down the streets of most major cities, blowing kisses at the crowds thronging the side walks.

Gay marriage is now legal in many of the more enlightened states.

Harrassing ANAL LUBE users is now legally considered a hate crime.

ANAL LUBE users are a huge silent minority in the US ... or maybe not so silent no more?

Why even your armed forces now issue "Field Expedient" ANAL LUBE to the troops ...

but they call it CLP. Adds new meaning to " clean ...lube ... PENETRATE).

AND

it is a well known fact that many Congessmen and Senators ( and possibly White House dwellers are ANAL LUBE users. In fact ANAL LUBE has assisted in many of the political decisions and compromises your enlightened govt has thryst upon you lately.

And since you brought up the subject of ANAL LUBE, how do we know if you are or not an expert on the subject?? Would you care to state here for the record your experience and expertise on the subject you brought up??

As a confirmed hetrosexual CANADIAN male, I myst sadly admit that Ihave no personal knowledge regarding ANAL LUBE. But, as patriotic Canadian, I DO have some knowledge regarding MAPLE SYRUP.

GOOGLE maple syrup and medicine, and you will find confirmation that maple syrup has near miraculous healing powers. So my suggestion is that the next time you and your friends find your selves in a sticky dick tactical situation, you use some of that CANADIAN maple syrup as your ANAL LUBE. Who knows ... it might just cure your long suffering chronic hemmorhoids. And for sure it will add flavor to your lollipops.

Feel free to report back here on your experiments ... after all it seems this is the appropriate designated thread to discuss ANAL LUBE.

(;{)

[Robocop1051]

Why do you have to be gay to use anal lube? Seems like a closet homophobe response to immediately condemn any use of "anal lube" as homosexual activity. I've sent many a princess home, walking funny and unable to sit right, thanks to that stuff. I dated an Asian gal for years. She loved getting her lower intestines all stirred up from time to time. Lube, in all its forms and names, is non-discriminatory... and when all else fails, just spit on it.